Have you ever wondered who pays the bill if you're a prospective client? I found myself asking this very question when I made plans with a realtor I was considering hiring. It all started when I went to an open house and met a realtor named Sally.
I was immediately drawn to Sally due to her wealth of knowledge. I'm currently very interested in building my real estate portfolio given the lag in property prices and very attractive rental yields vs. borrowing costs.
As a result, we got to talking and we agreed to have a follow up conversation during happy hour sometime in the future. Realtors are always looking for new clients. And I'm always looking to get up to date about the real estate environment. This post is not a topic of whether one should be buying property now. It's about deciding who pays the bill.
So Who Pays The Bill?
The last time I let a woman pay the bill was never, especially for an acquaintance I hardly know. In fact, even for new male acquaintances, I always pay the bill. It's just the way I grew up.
I asked the Twitter community whether I should pay or not since I am a prospective client. And I immediately got a range of responses from “don't be that guy,” to “you are sexist for even thinking about wondering whether you should pay.”
Pretty tough responses, which leads me to believe that sharing any questions I have in public just opens oneself out for attack. I also understand why people shy away from others and keeps things to themselves.
The Reason For Conflict
The reason why I was conflicted was because I didn't want the real estate agent thinking I was being presumptuous and sexist for paying. Nor did I want her to feel she needed to reciprocate in any way. I didn't want her thinking just because I was the guy, that I should pay.
Then again, hardly any women I've been out with have ever insisted on paying. And when they do offer to pay, I can tell they are just being courteous and not entirely serious, which is something I do appreciate. I hate that moment of awkwardness when the bill comes and nobody takes initiative to grab the bill. That's called having alligator arms.
I grew up in a culture that basically requires you to fight tooth and nail to pay the bill. I've seen my parents climb over their fellow diners, fighting to take care of the cheque. And, I've seen friends pretend to go to the bathroom an hour into dinner, to actually go find the server to pay the bill without us knowing! I've even seen adults proclaim that another party is dishonoring them if they dare pay for them too!
Bring Your Own Balls
If anybody REALLY wants to pay the bill they can. Perhaps I'm just more determined than others? It's kind of like when I go out on the tennis court and my opponent who is on a 5 match losing streak and is supposed to bring balls asks, “Do you have balls?”
We're playing at a damn tennis club that sells tons of balls. So him asking whether I have balls just means he doesn't want to provide balls. But by golly, if you are going out for a drink with me, I plan on paying!
And that's what I did with the realtor. I ended up paying the $60 bill. She didn't offer to pay, and I didn't expect her to. I was happy to pay, and she was happy to spend some time to get to know me.
Further Reading
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Readers, are men sexist for wanting to pay the bill? If you really wanted to pay the bill, do you think you could? Should women be more aggressive in paying the bill? Is chivalry a synonym for sexist pig? Is the woman who said she is offended by my question on Twitter ever going to find a man?
Regards,
Sam
If you want to harass me on Twitter you can follow @FinancialSamura or sign up for my RSS feed.
Hi Lisa – Good point about if you paid every time you’d go broke since actual sales are small.
She should look at it as a business expense right? But I donno, maybe I have a way to make her feel like it’s not a business outing and more of a friendly drinks thing, so I ended up paying.
Yes, a guy should make a gesture to pay imo too if it’s a date.
So Sam are you really Japanese? I’m not sure how it is in the Japanese culture, but in the Chinese and Korean cultures the culture is similar to your own experiences: people “fighting” to pay the bill. Splitting is a Western thing and not really common to them.
In my own view whoever invites should probably pay, and if the parties know each other well then they should probably either split or rotate…
I’ve been with my fiance for 3 1/2 years, and we’ve taken turns with the bill. If you really calculate it, I’ve paid more than he has. Usually because I’ve made more than him during the majority of the relationship.
What generation are you from? I am shocked that there are still men alive who feel that they should pay? You are a dying breed. I am a GenXer, and I have yet to meet a man under 50 years old who understands chivalry such as paying when with a woman. I fault women because they mistake chivalry for sexism. I applaud you. You must be a baby boomer.
Thanks for stopping by. We are from the same generation. It’s interesting to set how attitudes change from one to another.
In my opinion, if it’s a date (casual or romantic) the man should pay. If it’s business, both parties should be treated equal and the party that is the vendor should be the one picking up the tab. So you just have to figure out who’s gains the most from the meeting. You with your gained knowledge or her with her potential commission from being your realtor.
My boss is female and I have no problem with her picking up the check. After all, she has the expense account.
You’re not sexist for asking the question, just real and intelligent.
Sounds quite calculated Apex! I see your point and it has it’s merits. I guess I just don’t think too deeply on the who benefits angle. Perhaps I should.
@Darwin – Exactly.
I would say that you should take care of the bill, not because you are the man, but because you are expecting her to share her knowledge of real estate. That is the benefit for her: she gives you the information that you’re looking for, and you pay for it by picking up the bill. I would give the same response if the realtor was a guy. It’s the same thing.
Let’s say I am in the market for a $2 million house. A buying agent earns about 2% ie $40,000 if I purchase. Does that change things on whether or not she picks up a $40 tab?
The chivalrous part of you wants to pay, but if it were a dude, you wouldn’t. It’s a biz deal and she’s the one that should be spending the money up front, right? After all, she makes 2-3% on the transaction!
I hate the battles around paying the bill. I put in my best effort to pay it, but I no longer get made if they other party insist on paying instead. It lessens the dining experience.
Sexist or not, I always offer to pay the bill when I’m dining with women (even when they are wealthier and I am), it’s just my culture and honestly, expected most of the time.
My wife is from the Philippines and her entire family is obsessed with paying the bill. They will do very strange things to pay including getting into a fight and grabbing match in public. It embarrasses me honestly, but I also don’t always want them to pay either.
I admit I have snuck off to pay the waiter on more than one occasion because that’s the only way I can avoid a scene when I want to pay.
What culture are you from Sam?
Love the Philippines culture! I’m from the culture of trying to give more than I receive, b/c I’ve received so much in my life already.
i love it when women pay the bill – i am all for it. i just make sure i return the favor two folds in some form. that’s the man in me.
but i don’t make much of this situation especially today when there is more equality than ever before. more importantly, women (at least here in the USA) are just as capable as men are to earn money, etc.
as long as a relationship is mutually beneficial (you pick up some and i pick up some), i am good with it
Let her pay sometimes. I am so fed up with this sexism of convenience, whereby it’s sexist to notice when a co-worker is wearing a nice new dress, say, but when you go for a restaurant or bar some women act like they’re monks who’ve sworn off money.
New rule: If the other paying is charging the meal to their company or to the government, go ahead and let them pay.
Sam,
She could have billed it to her corporate account I think.
-Mike
Interesting how you describe how you grew up in an environment where there was competition to pay for the bill. I too grew up in a similar environment, where I saw my Dad yank the check out of people’s hands, make a deal with the waitress ahead of time, and just do whatever to make sure that he either A) paid the bill, or B) paid for at least our share. NO FREELOADING ALLOWED! It’s a matter of honor and self-respect.
As for me, I’m just like that with the no freeloading part. I hate when people try to do it to me. My approach is that everyone should be responsible for their own share, but I’ll take the high road and offer anyway. I’m not as adamant about my Dad about paying the whole bill for everyone all the time, but I’m not far behind.
I’ve experience people that have tried to weasel their way out of paying bills and EXPECT ME to do it, and I hate that. I just look at it as taking advantage of me on purpose. If I choose to pay the whole bill, that’s ok…but don’t expect me to or be shifty and steer things toward me paying.
You can see that I have experience with these situations. My “Extractor” posts shares it in great detail.
With the male paying for female bit, it really depends on the situation. In your situation, she should have seen that you were a potential client, and she should have either paid or made a strong effort to do so. Tells you something about her. Unless….she thought it was more of a friendly meeting, in which case I suppose you man up and pay…which you do anyway.
Everyday Tips put it best though, it’s the person “wooing” who should pay. To me, this means early-to-mid stages of dating the guy pays all, and in business it’s the business that pays and the client/prospective client who doesn’t. That seems to make the most sense to me, anyway…though this is a topic that is apparently viewed all across the spectrum.
Good topic…
Yes, free loaders and those who weasel to get OUT of paying the bill are annoying. Like one of my friends who likes to go to the bathroom when the bill comes to NOT have to pay the bill! That’s weak, and so obvious.
Perhaps I have a way for a woman to feel really comfortable when we go out, which may blur the professional line. I am VERY attentive when a woman is speaking. I make it a point to actively listen, maintain eye contact, smile and ask if she’s doing OK with food or drinks. Perhaps that’s what makes things blurry since perhaps some men are not like that?
Nobody is wooing anybody. It’s just a friendly meeting over drinks to understand the real estate market. I guess friendships blur, so sometimes it’s hard to tell.
I grew up in the culture where man always pays the bill. Now this being said… If you are her potential client (or so she thinks), she might want to pay the bill. And maybe you should let her. If it offends you or you feel guilty (sounds like your upbringing might have something to do with it), just pay for yourself. In the future, if we ever meet and go out to eat/drink (I love SF by the way), you will pay, and we both will be okay with it. :-)
Sounds good. I’m happy to pay. I feel guilty if someone pays for me, but that guilt subsides if they are so determined and we plan to go again. Then, I will most certainly pay back the favor, no doubt about it!
I’m old school like you …. pay the bill, regardless of who’s on the opposite side of the table. I absolutely abhor that feeling when the bill arrives. I was always taught to pay the bill NO MATTER WHAT. It has nothing to do with guy/girl, who called the meeting, who’s the prospect, none of that matters. You grab the bill and pay it. If the other party objects vehemently enough, for whatever reason, then I will relent. That never usually happens though.
” In fact, even for new male acquaintances, I always pay the bill. ”
So does that mean when we finally meet for Sushi, you’ll pay? :-)
I would, but I think you lost a bet right and are older? :)
Ah, the infamous bathroom trick. My mother did that on a recent dinner with one of her friends and the rest of us family! Very sneaky.
I can tell you that that is not one of the Asian customs I’m carrying on with, personally. It’s a silly charade. I do have one friend who is like that though – generous to a fault and always wanting to treat his friends.
I was recently interviewing someone for a story over coffee, and assumed I’d pay for my own. However, when we got to the counter, he gestured and asked “What can I get you?” Which was a nice way of deflecting any potential conflict/confusion, I guess.
haha that woman on Twitter could have a hard time in this day and age. Most people I know will pay for what they ordered, or divide a big bill evenly among the number of attendees for big gatherings. And if someone’s having a birthday then we divide up the bill so the birthday gal/guy doesn’t have to pay. Offering to pay for everyone’s drinks and meals is usually too big a bill to take on. However it’s much easier to treat if you’re only going out with one or two people, and that’s more common. I go for coffee with a colleague every now and then and we alternate paying for each other’s drinks which is nice and also saves time at the cashier. I think your generosity is awesome. I enjoy paying for friends and family. I always fight to pay the bill when I’m out with my mother. Even though she doesn’t have much money she always tries to pay because I’m visiting but I always grab the bill b/c I know she has a tight budget and she did so much for me over the years.
That’s sweet of you to always pay for your mother. We kids should always fight to pay the bill for our parents. They’ve given us so much growing up…. like 22 years of their life and savings!
The only person who owns your actions is you, if you let people on twitter determine how you should react in a public setting then your parents will have failed miserably.
If you took the bill in my opinion it would have been proper for the other party to leave the tip. When I take out co-workers or my staff when I offer to pay for lunch or drinks I always let them know that I am picking up the tab but they are free to leave a tip. This helps them not feel awkward or like they need my charity to get through the day. On more than one occasion I have paid $60 for lunch and watched my co-workers leave another $50-$60 in combined tips. Since I live in a small community and work in a city of less than 250,000 this type of behavior is usually remembered the next time we visit that locale.
Remember, it is always better to give than receive. You are living the golden rule, the only judgment you have to worry about is when you stand in front of St. Peter and are asked to pass judgment on yourself over the decision you made in this life.
I don’t let anybody on Twitter determine how I react, although I do always enjoy the feedback and viewpoints of others. That’s some heavy judgement there! I don’t take it that far!
If you paid because she has the opposite parts of you then it is sexist BUT SO WHAT. Why is it wrong? The society we choose to live in has certain customs and norms and you paying a couple bucks for drinks and dinner is just one of them.
Does it make you evil that you are nice guy? Nope. Although you might be evil for using the spelling cheque rather than check. HAHAHAHHA
Mate, “cheque” is the proper way to spell “cheque”! If you use “Check”, that just causes confusion!
I would LOVE it if a woman insisted on paying everything for me. Alas, I’ve never met one out there yet.
You’re OK.
I also grew up and lived in cultures where paying for the meal is a form of hospitality. It’s an honor to have guests, whether in your home, or at a restaurant. Mere money should not be the issue. If you can’t afford the whole tab, you shouldn’t be dining out.
If I am with a guy, I assume we will split it.
If I am with a girl that is “just a friend” and I have no interest in, I usually plan to split it.
If I am interested, or it is a date, I make a point to pay. If she protests, I am happy to split it. If it has been a longer term relationship, I don’t mind the woman paying some of the time.
Sounds like a simple, straightforward plan to me! Good one. Although women and men often have ulterior motives too. Go figure.
If she was providing information for you, you should pay. If she was marketing her services as a broker, she should pay. It did not sound like a social situation, unless you were hopeful!