Raising children is expensive. They also take a tremendous amount of energy. Therefore, please don’t have children until you can first take care of yourself first. Your kids are not asked to be born. We owe it to them to be financially stable to give them the best life possible.
Protect Your Career By Having Children
In “How To Dramatically Increase Your Job Security For Life,” the article suggests managers are more inclined to fire those workers who are child-free. As a result, one should strategically at least hint at the intention of starting a family to protect oneself from unemploymentville.
Clearly I'm being flippant. My goal is to make people realize that relationships and emotion play enormous roles in shaping work success. People tend to promote and take care of their own. We are all biased.
Whether you work for a small family business or a large corporation, hiring and firing is a very personal decision that comes down to one or only a handful of decision makers. By tugging at their souls, and increasing their guilt factor, you're well on your way to dramatically higher job security for life.
Let's say you're not particularly wealthy, nor make a particularly impressive amount of money. You still have loads of student loans and consumer debt to pay off. In essence, you're the typical American! Shouldn't you be putting on your air mask before helping others?
The Cost To Raise Children Is High
Child raising is estimated to cost anywhere between $250,000 to $1 million from birth to after college. If a family can't even have the discipline to save 20% of their paycheck after contributing to their 401K and IRA, how can one consciously start a family?
$250,000 ISN'T A LOT, YET HOW MANY CAN SAVE THAT MUCH?
A typical person graduates college by 22. If you're really slow, perhaps 25. $250,000 divided by 25 is only $10,000/year in after tax costs to raise your child.
If you're in the 24% tax bracket, you'll need to make roughly $13,000 in gross income to net $10,000. Right off the bat, you'll have to save anywhere from 10-20% a year to pay for your child. Sure, for the first 10 years you probably won't be spending $10,000 a year, but what about for the last 15 years with tuition costs and inflation?
Any private college worth attending costs over $40,000 a year all in. Let's say little Johnny is brilliant and gets a 50% scholarship. That's $20,000 a year right there plus another $15,000 a year for living and school expenses. Even public schools run about $20-$25,000 a year nowadays in tuition and living expenses.
THE $1 MILLION DOLLAR PROPOSAL Before Having Kids
In “Do “C” Students Deserve “A” Lifestyles“, the article suggests the government impose restrictions on what certain people can buy based on their average GPA in high school or college.
For example, only if you have a 3.7/4.0 or higher in college, are you allowed to buy a BMW. A 3.5 GPA allows you to buy a Honda Accord or cheaper, and those who couldn't even crack 2.5 are restricted to biking or walking.
The idea is that if you were smart enough to get straight “A's” in college, you are smart enough to realize that buying a $5,000 Hermes handbag, and spending more than you make is a sure way to financial ruin.
Conversely, if you were dumb enough to not try in school and not realize the importance of education, then it's best to leave the weapons of mass financial destruction out of your hands. Society shouldn't have to bail you out in the end.
As the government continues to infiltrate all our lives, may I suggest a new proposal. Unless your household net worth is over $1 million, no American household is allowed to have a child!
OK, so $1 million is likely too high of a hurdle, but you get the idea. Institute minimal financial standards, such as having at least a positive net worth and a declaration of a 10 year financial game plan before a couple can start a family.
Positives Of Having A $1 Million Net Worth Before Having Kids
1) Population control. We are the #1 user of Earth's natural resources. Curb population growth, decrease our fiscal burden, and let the world live longer.
2) Improved financial health. Those who really want kids will stop messing around and really start saving and working on their finances.
3) Increased care for the child. With a net worth of at least $1 million, there's a lower chance your child will experience neglect due to lack of funds.
4) More well-rounded children. With more resources, a child can take as many art, music, sports lessons as he or she wants. After school tutoring is no problem, neither is a cultural immersion trip overseas.
5) Less divorce and happier parents. Without the strains of money (the #1 item couples argue over), there's less stress for couples. Happier couples mean happier, less trauma-exposed children.
6) Easier to combat inflation. Children are expensive, no doubt about it. If you have $1 million before having your first kid, then childcare cost won't be unbearable.
CONCLUSION – Children Deserve Financial Security
With over 143 MILLION orphans around the world, maybe we should think thrice about having children. Perhaps the Duggars family, with their 18 kids aren't really doing “God's work.” Maybe they'd do better adopting 18 children who need help instead.
We all have the right to do whatever we want, but should we? If we aren't willing to help feed or adopt a starving child, at the very least, let's not add another by making sure our financial health is in order first before having our own.
People frequently say there's no right time to have children. That's baloney. The right time to have children is when you have an unwavering desire to care for someone for 18+ years.
Your finances are the least of your worries because they're set, and you have a clear plan for child raising. If you have no plan, no money, and no intense desire please don't have children. Figure out how to take care of yourself first.
Related: The Average Net Worth For The Above Average Married Couple
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Great post! My parents were people who hadn’t even managed the basics of cooking for themselves before having children and one of them didn’t cook for us kids as she didn’t like it. They did what a lot of people do. Not thinking. Its a shame because having children provides an opportunity to step up your game in everything. Unfortunately my parents didn’t see it that way.
I’m a young woman in my early twenties struggling to make ends meet. My parents are dead & I put myself through school–first community college while working full time, then a 4-year program, again while working nearly full time. I had no parents to help start me off. I’m doing everything on my own. In California, where I used to live, I kept hearing other young women my age and younger talking about how much money they could get just by having kids. And they didn’t even work while I was exhausted from working 50+ hours a week and going to school.
So when I graduated, I immediately became an expat. There’s no way I think it’s fair that I should be working myself to the bone to foot tax bills that go to support people who know they can’t support themselves, let alone children, but who still have child after child. The other day I got into a heated argument with this older guy who told me I have a responsibility to care for the poor. Um, what about me? I’m dirt poor. Who is going to care for me? That’s right. Just me–if I could keep more of the money I earn so I could plan for my own future. The only difference between me and a lot of girls my age is that I realize how painful being poor is SO I won’t impose poverty on my own kids OR on other poor people like me who’re already struggling to survive because so much of their pay is taken in taxes to fund … other poor people.
I’m OK helping a childless individual out for a few weeks or months. They didn’t have a choice to come into the world and seem to have made a commitment to minimize the drain on shared resources. But when that person CHOOSES to reproduce and increase the population of the needy, I loose all compassion. So long as the US keeps enabling that mess, I’ll stay out of the US and work overseas. And more and more young people just like me are leaving the US to escape the tax-welfare slavery there.
I mean no one any offense. Good luck to the rest of you.
So sorry that you have struggled by yourself for what you have. Your response made so much sense to me. I work with young women who aren’t so much as using the government for money by having children, they are just having children without any real thought as to how in the world they are going to provide for this innocent one? I ask myself one day, why am I the only practical person in the room?
@Gail Lynn Jones “Why am I the only practical person in the room”? Right, Gail. I’m a practicing physician and am regularly professionally ostracized for making claims about reproduction consistent with national and global empirical studies. You’d think I’m advocating genocide. The economic, mental health, ecological, whole-environment… data all argue that human cultures should be far more judicious about reproductive choices. But because the reproductive drive resides so deem in humanity, it’s unlikely enough of us will make significant enough choices before things get much, much worse.
You’re not the only practical person in the room, but, sadly, you’re among the minority. Cheers.
It seems people don’t realize that the government is giving tax breaks to encourage people to have children. Somebody has to have them to fund our retirement and sustain our economy. Also any of us can choose to adopt or have children and get tax breaks as well. A couple thousand in tax deduction or credits and/or welfare isn’t enough for me considering how much work children are.
This was a great piece! I’m 30, divorced, no kids (unless the four-legged kind count)! I have the money for kids, but not the time (I work 55+ hours per week and commute 3 hours/day). I find it reprehensible that a tax break exists for parents, and think it would be sensible to have tax hikes on kids instead. Those increased taxes could go to schools or pediatricians medical malpractice payments, something childless adults don’t use, but parents would benefit from. I wish there were a minimum educational requirement for welfare so gals won’t just drop out of high school because they think “school is boring ” and they are brain dead and horny so they just get pregnant instead. The minimum should be an associates degree. What ever happened to “survival of the fittest?” Fit does not just include physical fitness or the ability to carry a baby to term. It also includes educational and financial fitness, or the ability to support oneself and his/her progeny. If I remarry and start a family, I am going to wait until I can cut my hours at work. No point in giving birth just to hand your child to a babysitter or something! But yeah, in order to be on welfare people should need college and drug tests. I was drug tested in maybe 70% of jobs offered. If people need drug tests to make money and pay taxes, they should be required to pass drug and alcohol tests prior to receiving MY (and your) hard-earned tax dollars.
Excellent point about the drug testing, I didn’t realize it but I went through the same. If I need to pass a drug test, and I think nowadays a credit check (!) too, to work and pay taxes, someone living off those taxes without working should, too. With an exception about the credit check thing though monitoring expenditures isn’t so bad if you’re on the dole. You don’t want the gummint looking over your shoulder? Stop living on their (i.e., yours and mine as taxpayers) dime.
Welfare by and large has dwindled since the bad old days. One of the few good things coming out of the 2016 Presidential election is that it’s unlikely to come back – HRC was in favor of relaxing the rules that got tightened up under Bill C. We taxpayers have dodged that bullet.
Impressive that this thread’s lasted 7 years!
Why would you hike up taxes for people already paying more bill’s? Dumb idea. You fall into that kid hate group who think anyone with kids should be punished.
I don’t think it’s hate kids exactly. It’s that every time you turn around someone is suggesting, hey let’s get this tax break for parents. Well someone has to pay for that tax break and it’s the folks without kids. That weren’t involved in making those kids, but in a round about way become financially responsible for those kids.
PREACH. AMEN. AMEN. AMEN. Thank you Sam!
Sam – What tips have you used when you have saved for your children’s Middle School / HS / College savings plans?
How have you valued – Summer education benefits with longer term savings?
Thanks.
This post IS offensive, but also, if people weren’t people and we were just talking about robots I’d agree with you. People should be able to afford their kids. BUT you approach this very much as a man. I’ve been writing a lot about my desire to have children vs my waiting to be able to afford them. I would love to have $1M in networth before I have children but that’s not in the cards, so my goal is $500k. If you count my husband’s savings as well I will probably be at about that, maybe a little more. As a woman I don’t have the luxury to wait if I want my own kids. I’m going to be 33 in a few months. If I do wait, esp if I want more than one kid, I risk complications plus it will likely cost more to even HAVE the kid with various medical interventions. Not everyone can wait until they have enough money to have children. Also, not every child needs to go to a private college. Kids can be raised for a lot less. They can take out loans. I don’t recommend having a kid in poverty, and I think it’s unfortunate that the people who have the most children are often those who are in the worst financial states – but let’s not forget that women cannot just wait and change their mind later. I may not be fully financially prepared for children but assuming I’m going forward with at least trying to have them that has to happen soon.
Oh please. The post is offensive to YOU. I find it unoffensive. Sam raises a thought-provoking issue and treats it even-handedly.
And, really it comes down to your wants. Not the kids wants or their lives – ‘they can take out loans.’ Well, then, they won’t do as well as kids that don’t have to because their parents can afford to pay for their college.
Sorry, kids are a want, not a need. If you’re worried about time, adopt.
You really feel like 500k isn’t a reasonable goal for her to have kids? Whether it’s a want or not for her, that’s plenty of money.
If it’s not enough to put the kid through an Ivy league school (at least, give the kid the option), then, no. 500k is about what it’d cost to get them to adulthood in a major metro area; the average in 2015 was 250k to age 18, and that’s an average so it includes NYC, and Norman, OK. As I recall those were the two ends of the spectrum.
How is it offensive. I don;t agree with the author blabbering on about the money side of things but in general I get it. Don’t have children if you can’t take care of yourself. Its a simple premise but a highly important one. If you can’t take care of a grown adult (i.e) you, how the hell can you provide a baby with the basics? Perhaps the author has hit a nerve.
The world is overpopulated, it’s irresponsible for anyone to have children these days. It’s killing the planet and ya know in 40 years when I am old and have worked myself near death, I would like to know that my Social Security is going to be there, and not helping some wannabe parent who’s child busted down my door looking for drug money.
This is such great advice. I was not prepared for what I’d have to give up in my own life once my son was born. It took some time but as I shed off time waster after time waster, I really began seeing what was important to me and what was not.
Well, this post is a real hot button. For starters, what about the national effect of zero or negative population growth? Generally speaking, without a future generation, what will happen to our country’s gross national product? Financial Samurai probably knows what happens to countries with negative population growth….it’s not pretty. There are serious societal ills from a reduced population and a reduced workforce. Children are a requirement for the good health of our US economy going forward.
On the personal side, there are financial considerations to everything in life, but you must be stable and dedicated to raise children well. Of course it takes money, but I have observed that capable parents figure out how to take care of their children’s needs. As FS has pointed out in the past, it’s not that hard to apply yourself after you have a good education, and work hard to build income and wealth. It is much more elusive to find love, to keep love, and to build a family life with another person. Money will fund the project, but stable and kind people build the best families, regardless of budget. Income is a tool, but smart and creative parents figure out how to do the most with a tight budget. It doesn’t really matter whether you have your own or adopt – it’s raising them that counts. Not everyone is up for the challenge. You have to be unselfish and patient…that’s just as important as paying bills.
Not every poster states whether he/she is a parent, and that would be an interesting statistic to process along with the comments, some of which are ludicrous, mean-spirited, and immature. I can say I have been through the entire process, having raised two children to adulthood. Money allowed us to give them solid educations through college, and we tried to spend as much time with them as possible. We were the nannies and drivers. After college graduation, they never came back home to live, and they are now in their mid to late 20’s, living far from home, and are successful in their careers and personal lives. Neither of them – so far -has asked us for a loan or to pay an emergency bill. It was our gift that they started their working lives without debt, and I think that makes a big difference when you are starting out. Many young adults are really suffering with heavy college loans. Still, our children are thriving – they are well adjusted, responsible, and successful adults, and that result is due to more than money. I feel it was the stability of our home, the love we all shared, the training we gave, the loyalty and kindness, and daily jobs and responsibilities for the children. We enjoyed each other, and had lots of fun as a family. We ate together EVERY evening, and the only one who could be excused was my husband, who traveled occasionally.
We had many advantages, and still, it was – at times – hard work to keep it all going. We could not have succeeded without both of us really pledging ourselves to a structured family life, 24/7. There’s no denying that adequate money gave us one type of stability, but emotional stability, patience and dedication come from within, and you can’t buy those things. There were times when we weren’t sure if we were handling a problem properly, and we worried that we were inadequate. No one really prepares you for parenthood, and you remember your own family life growing up. We must have done something right because they both seem happy with their lives, and they are very affectionate and appreciative towards us.
I was older when I had my children, and becoming a parent wasn’t a burning desire for me. As I review the last 30 years, it was the best decision my husband and I ever made. As a side benefit, it made me a much better person than I otherwise would have been. As for indignation over tax credits, you can either dedicate your life to fighting the inevitable iniquities, or you can just live your life and get on with it. Life is NOT fair. Your thoughts, your words, and your deeds are the only things you control. It is silly for people WITH children and people WITHOUT children to be at odds. These are personal choices and deserve to be respected.
You sound like your were a very wonderful parents with well rounded priorities. America needs more parents like this, lot’s more.
No one is at odds with anyone here, it is a discussion, if it is right or wrong to have children when you cannot afford it. First off increasing population doesn’t have the effect you are saying it does, but you do make it sound right. Our workforce will make due as it always will either shorthanded or not.
Questions a parent should ask themselves beside the important one list in this article.
Do you want you children now standing on peoples heads in 40 years? Because as it is right now if you went to Alaska there are 1 person for every 20 square miles. Next lowest would be Wyoming in the USA, it’s 1 person for every 12 square miles. These places have lots of areas that no man would even want to live in anyway.
Now drive across town. The same town 20 years ago it took you 3 mins to get across, now it takes 30 mins because of all the people, and I live in a small place of only 120k. I cannot imagine what it must be like in the NE part of the US.
Now about personal choice, if your personal choices effects me, and when they do then I have the right to enforce rules. It’s my space, if you are big enough to push into it, then be prepared to face whatever I might want as it is my personal preference. So can we really say anyone has any rights? I mean the only one I am aware of is if you live it’s a surety you’ll die. By rights it’s all you have. Your wants, hopes, and dreams are of no concern to me.
“If you have no plan, no money, and no intense desire please don’t have children.”
*Stands up and applauds*
You know, looking back at the comments section, it’s amazing at the hate this post is getting. Hey Sam, how DARE you suggest that having children isn’t THE MOST WONDERFUL, AMAZING, PRECIOUS THING IN THE WORLD THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD BE DOING RIGHT NOW!!!!
Honestly, if you are telling people to stop having children, then I actually completely agree with you. In today’s society, you are seen as strange, weird, and even selfish (and at least one commenter has accused you of being that) if you don’t want to have kids. My mother once asked me when she’s getting grandkids. Based on my current desires, life goals, and financial situation, the answer is currently “eww, never”. And I don’t feel weird or guilty about that. I don’t have the intense desire to care for a tiny person for 18 years, dedicate my life to him/her, and put his/her needs before mine.
And everyone else getting mad at you seems to not have read the post. “How dare you suggest that only families with a net worth of $1,000,000 and over be allowed to have children”, they scream, seemingly not having read the very next sentence where you say that the number you suggested is actually unreasonably high and you were just trying to prove a point and get people thinking. If your point was that people should stop having kids, point proven.
I’ve been reading your posts recently. Some of them I completely agree with, others not so much. But reading this post (with which I agree with completely), it’s amazing how many people get so irrationally angry at something that I’m not even sure they actually fully read.
Sincerely,
ARB–Angry Retail Banker
Wow, someone that Actually Gets it. Nice post, ARB.
Having kids is entirely a choice, and as you point out, a bad one. Those that HAVE made this choice, react violently when it’s, I’ll put this mildly, “called into question.” (I don’t question it – it’s never the right choice, it’s because someone has a WANT.)
Good luck, though. Most of society loathes those that CHOOSE not to have children and persecutes them.
Wow, sounds like there are very few Christians on this rampage. And ARB IS simply selfish and probably suffering with narcissism in his veins. It’s all about YOU and your WANTS. God help us with THAT philosophy! The human race would become extinct! REALLY!!? And no, I didn’t have an intense desire either because it’s a terrifying responsibility to be accountable for another human being’s life and upbringing to be a responsible, contributing adult to society! Your parenting almost always affects how happy and successful they will be. (In my case, i raised her the opposite way I was. It paid off 100 fold) AND it was the most rewarding ‘labor of love ‘ in my entire life, including my successful career! Waited until I was 38, financially capable and haven’t had a second thought from the day she was born! Hardest and most rewarding job in the world! I happen to love that my parents gave birth to me because I love life! So that’s why I took the plunge. On the other hand, don’t have children if you just want to sponge off the government. Get a job! That’s a given!!! Live your life according to God’s Word and you would love life and appreciate the GIFT of parenthood, adopted or otherwise, too! I’ll pray for you because you’re one of His children. God Bless you all!
This article is ridiculous. Half the reason our society is in the mess it is now is because people like yourself have become totally blinded by the importance of money and have this sense of social darwinistic entitlement because of it.
When it comes to children money is not as half as important as being emotionally stable, and there’s plenty of rich and wealthy parents who are emotional fuckups. That and being so wealth driven they don’t spend enough time with the children or retain the ability to actually listen/be present with them because they have dollar signs floating around inside their heads.
You can be relatively poor and still raise great children. But if you want to produce the next generation of soulless consumer nobodies in high paying positions who attended the best schools and all that, then no, being poor won’t help you achieve your desires for them.
If you have children your aim should be for them to become happy well-adjusted adults. Money does not guarantee that and should not be the focus of your efforts. Personally I think people should reflect before having children.. but I think the criteria should be emotional competency and not financial as you suggest. The world needs better adjusted individuals, not more rich ones.
“half of all statistics are made up.” .
The article isn’t “only wealthy should have children.” The article is, “This is how much it costs to raise children. Can you afford it?” and it mostly understates the amounts required. Nor does it say “Money should be the focus of your efforts.”
Sam at least earns some dough and is more or less clear-eyed about what life costs. For him and his kid(s) – not sure how many, at least one.
Emotional competency? Sure – just how do YOU measure that? Data please (remember: anecdotes are not data.) And it needs to be measured BEFORE children are had.
“As the government continues to infiltrate all our lives, may I suggest a new proposal. Unless your household net worth is over $1 million, no American household is allowed to have a child! OK, so $1 million is likely too high of a hurdle, but you get the idea. Institute minimal financial standards, such as having at least a positive net worth and a declaration of a 10 year financial game plan before a couple can start a family.”
The tone of the article is pretty clear. I find it a bit offensive too to be honest.. what right do you have to deny any human being their primary function as a propagator of the species? Or to declare that financial competence should be the arbitrating factor in the decision? As my post alluded I would argue that emotional competency is far more important than financial competency in whether someone should have children or not.
How does one measure it? Well it’s something a computer will never gauge – it requires another human to do it. Anyway we shouldn’t be placing these kinds of demands on the process of reproduction, but rather trying to help people grow as individuals as much as possible before committing to have children. We have to work out the kinks as we go. Placing a financial barrier on the process doesn’t solve the root causes of the problems we face.
I get some level of money is important. You want to prevent those without it from getting into a bad situation and for the wellbeing of the future children, I get that. I’m saying there’s better ways around this and that a financial criteria doesn’t really solve the problem at all.
‘Society shouldn’t have to bail you out in the end’
Because society is perfect? Without any compassion we will go backwards. Give people the tools they need to move forward, don’t punish them for inheriting flaws from their parents and external environment!
SS27 – The article is supposed to get readers to feel some emotion.
Why does the government give child tax credits for those with income under a certain level? What business do they have deciding who gets to have money for children and who doesn’t? Instead of a tax credit, what about a tax penalty to help minimize absentee parents. Raising kids is a full-time job!
Here’s a tangential post: Why Debt Welchers Are Admired
SS27 – sorry, no data and we’ll ignore you. Your agenda is pretty obvious, with silly comments like ‘primary function.’ The primary function of any being is self-preservation. As for propagation, here’s a simple fact for you: It’s not enough to propagate humans. The progenitor needs to provide for the offspring to ensure it’s success.
As Sam rightfully points out, why should childbearing be subsidized then? If you can’t feed ’em, don’t breed ’em.
All the arguments against Sam’s post can be boiled down to: “You’re a mean man. I want my kiddies. Want want want. Don’t spoil it for me by presenting some REASONS it might not be a good idea.”
Sorry to spoil your rant, but your opinion is just that- an opinion. It has no credibility. Just like the original post. I saw no real statistics in this post and it isn’t going to change the world. Time to get a large dose of reality.
https://www.econ.ucla.edu/workingpapers/wp803.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22091801
Is that sufficient data for you. I do not completely agree with the article, but the point is true. One, the global population went from 2 billion to just under 8 billion in like 40 years. Also, people can do whatever they want, but I don’t understand the concept of it being the responsibility someone (who decided to wait to have the blessing of children) to take care of the children of someone who did not plan. I also believe that the moment you infringe on someone else’s right to spend his money freely, the rights of the individual who is receiving the benefits should be infringed upon accordingly. I spent 6 years after college and went 200k into debt to become a physician. Yet, here I am spending giving the government 10k a month in taxes to help care for individuals who decided to start “enjoying” life at 20. I understand that taxes pay for several things, but again the point is that right now people speak about the rich like they are villains who don’t deserve their money and want to keep raising taxes on upper income brackets. Looking at physician life expectancy, I am essentially killing myself doing this job. Lastly, with the differential fertility of high income and low income individual, and the “right” of benefits to these low income individuals, do people not realize that eventually things will come to a hedge if we do not address the problem from both ends (yes give them benefits/but limit the growth of those who are dependent of benefits).
“Some level of money is important.” Yea, I remember growing up, I went 3 weeks eating love alone…anyway, money is a significant factor in the decision to have a child. Yes it is not the only factor, but only a fool would have a child without realizing that they have to eat, go to school, and receive healthcare. Yes crazy people shouldn’t have children, and yes, rich kids tend to be spoiled. But rich kids tend to grow into contributing members of society, whereas poor kids largely grow into poor adults, who more than double themselves by having proportionately more poor kids.
And to define a kid whose parents waited to have the financial security to care for him as spoiled is an odd generalization. Just cus one kid has organic foods and a nice car, while the other is corn-fed and drives a beater doesn’t make the first kid spoiled. His parents just wanted to make sure diabetes or a breakdown are not in his future.
And finally, the rate of broken families, mental disabilities, and violence is significantly higher in low-income families. So the rich make bad parents is a false claim. Also, if you have a stable career and get paid well from 8 to 5, you spend more time with your kids than someone working 2 or 3 jobs. Also, I don’t believe we have a problem with unsupervised young people becoming criminals and gangsters.
Sorry for the rant, I just believe we need to take a holistic view to life…both logical (primarily) and idealogical.
Having worked in urban environments where 75% of children come from single parent families in the lowest SES available, where crime is rampant (what came first, crime or poverty ?), and large families are the given, the successful in all first world nations should be compensated to procreate and the poorest to not do so.
Religion and culture be damned-we don’t live in agrarian societies where large families are needed.
Spoken like a welfare recipient. You are obviously trash and your kids probably are.
Ss27,
Couldn’t put it better!!! WELL SAID!! I applaud you!!!!
Neuro, per your points:
1. regularly debunked re: charities. Rich give to what benefits them – concert halls, hospital wings (where you can’t afford it as a middle-class due to the ridiculous state of US healthcare, which of course benefits the rich.) Rich pay surprisingly little amount of taxes, what’s in the tax return rarely matters.
2. The middle-class myth is over. I agree, hard work is good – but it’s no longer sufficient to guarantee a safe middle-class lifestyle. The healthcare deck is stacked against you. Retirees are being told to have $200k at retirement to cover what’s not available through insurance. Do you think with goals of house, kids, education for yourself & kids, that’s achievable at America’s median income (around $54k before taxes?) I don’t
3. Million dollars is oft quoted and is LOW. The data that the US government provides to reach this, are based on the SECOND child (so you have the crib, the space for the kid, etc.) It does NOT include college education for the kid, nor does it include the opportunity cost of 1 parent dropping out from the workforce. “A million dollars just doesn’t go as far anymore” is true in the US more than ever. And heaven forfend the kid isn’t healthy – an increasingly high risk, and see (1) about the US healthcare system.
On a side note, the US just fell behind China in the rate of maternal mortality, we’re way down on the list. Despite all that expensive healthcare, a Chinese mom is more likely to survive childbirth than a US mom.
4. Agree, but good luck. They’re all ‘non-profits’ unfortunately. Congress should be going after the inheritance tax to help balance the books, raise the capital gains, etc. More realistic goals.
Dear Samurai,
I’ve read some of your articles are find them to be very interesting.
I would say you hit on many fine point.
1) The rich do pay most of the taxes, and asking them to pay more and more of it is insane.
If I make 500k a year and already paid a huge amount (>183k) and then I take the post tax money and decide to invest in our society (which the stock market is), why should I have pay even more taxes on the money I made by being frugal? I don’t get it. Its not a ‘loophole’. Anyone can invest their money, small or large. Investing on the money after paying their share of tax, is not a way for the rich to “get out of paying taxes”. People who invest in the market and allow free trade, the country, economy, companies etc.. should be praised for being frugal. Don’t expect them to pay even more. Charitable contributions are tax deductible. So what? if they are donating their money to a cause they believe in, hey good for them!
2) America is the riches and the land of opportunities. Look at all the new immigrants who work hard and make something of themselves. Work hard and you will be rewarded. People notice who is hard working. Work hard and if that doesn’t work, work even harder. Don’t expect people to just hand you stuff. If you work really hard, people will be more than willing to help you. And if you are poor, be thankful. Don’t ‘expect’ that you are somehow owed by society. No one owes anyone anything. Poor or those in less fortunate situation usually get help if they are genuine and sincere. But if you go with the attitude you are owed or something, people are less willing to help.
3) I totally agree that people shouldn’t have children who can’t afford them. If you can’t afford to pay car insurance, you don’t get to drive. If you can’t afford to pay for the steak, you don’t get to eat that steak. If you can’t afford the NFL ticket, you don’t get to see it. Don’t go screwing around (phun intended) and have kids and then expect society to support you. I don’t think $1 million is realistic and I think you were just joking but there should be some standard for having children. They have it for adoption, so why not for anyone who wants one.
4) I would add that churches/synagogues/mosques/temples should have to pay taxes like any other corporation. Look at how much money is spent on institutions that preach about a fantasies written several thousands years ago. We are in 2015! “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”
Dear Samurai, thanks for the great article. Most people have kids for the wrong reasons, without any idea of what it takes to raise sane, healthy adults. They also, for the most part, seem oblivious to the struggles kids are going to face in this complex and already overcrowded world. They are often not preparing the kids for the world they will be enter, and these kids will suffer. And, in order to feel better, many of the kids will HAVE KIDS, even before they can take care of themselves. Being from a family of 8, I find it all very disturbing. I would like to know how you deal with witnessing this unconscious and destructive behavior, knowing the true emotional and financial costs of children who are not prepared for?
Wow you didn’t mention about what happens when people fall on hard times…divorce, medical crisis and my favorite businesses that needlessly drive up the cost of living and then claim debt when its just making meaningless unobtainable goals that will be just another way to jilt employees out of their pay…
Many people start out great and then the bottom falls out from under them.. If businesses and employees have such great relations government control wouldn’t be necessary. Oh but look at the person who didn’t go to school and learn about grad level social structure and economics.
Do C students deserve A lifestyles.. if they are working at it yes. .. If you haven’t noticed people are taking control of resources back from companies.. money is going out of style in some areas.. FreeFood Project where people are sharing what they raised..since houses cost so much and flimsy.. people are pushing for cob homes they last well over a century easier to maintain…… and going back to the group schools carried on in communities at the pace of the children not from gimmicks sold by corporate America that has turned out less graduates. to be human is to understanding…
It is funny you speak of resources when the rich consume more resources than they need and have the ill-blasted nerve to rant about what poor people have. Many of the poor are living in tent cities.. U.S. is no better than Brazil’s abusive economy..devaluing wages.. telling people that bank clerks, salesmen don’t do much so they should get paid less. They do more now than they use to..They use to have homes, vacations and were fixtures in their communities..now they work poor and businesses commit wage theft… and worse in many cases commit wage theft and cheat customers. This is very elitist sight.. shame on you.
Is it elitist, or is it a responsible and logical way of thinking to help society out over the long term?
I grew up in developing countries like Zambia, Malaysia, India, China in the 80s and 90s. America is paradise compared to so many other countries. Did you grow up in developing countries where per capita GDP is just 1/5th or less that of the US?
I’m actually in Siem Reap, Cambodia now, where children at the age of 5 are working on the streets, trying to make a buck by selling magnets to help the family survive.
I’ve paid over $100,000 a year in income taxes for over 10 years in a row to help support public works. How much have you paid in taxes over the past 10 years?
I’ve written on Financial Samurai for six years, publishing 3-4 posts a week without fail, trying to help people improve their financial lives. I’ve never asked for any money. I’ve responded to thousands of comments, and hundreds of e-mails asking me for help, in order to help.
And in June, 2015, I published a 180 page, 69,000 word eBook that if read will help the reader tremendously with their finances due to the knowledge they’ll gain, the framework they can follow, and the strategies they’ll employ. Furthermore, I’m donating 100% of the book’s proceeds after expenses to a charity that helps keep our youth off the streets, so they can get an education to give them the best shot at doing well in life. Maybe you’d like to purchase a copy and support the cause?
And here’s the thing, I haven’t done enough. What I hope to do is start a discussion, bring about different perspectives, and get people to take action. The sooner we can secure our financial lives, the sooner we can help other people.
Instead of criticizing me and other rich people, how about taking action? Please share with us your story and background instead of talking about other people.
Thanks!
For NoKids4Me: you’re absolutely right, corporations WANT you to have many children – it means more consumers for their products, and cheaper labor in their factories. Even the most cursory investigation into the data bears this out – look at the lament about ‘income inequality.’ It’s not inequality -it’s TOO MANY PEOPLE SLICING THE SAME PIE. Or, look at the data on ‘wage stagnation for the middle class’; supply and demand still rules – and there’s an oversupply of humans.
When people become more prosperous, they have smaller families. For a modern example, look at the ferility rates in Mexico. The families there, are shrinking in size.
Finally, here’s more good reason to not have kids: you’re condemning them to life in the world described in this study from 1999, a little dated, but not wrong, and its probably worse than the scientists are predicting: https://chronicle.cornell.edu/stories/1999/09/miserable-life-overcrowded-earth-2100
Sadly, I agree with you 100%. The writing has been on the walls for decades, but people eat up the spoon fed propaganda. As a species, we are de-evolving. The middle class has disappeared, and I hear more & more people WANT more government control. It’s just so easy to let others do the thinking. I always believed hard work, perseverance, & good moral grounding would take you to the top. College was a rude awakening. Four jobs, full units, & lived in my car. (I’m a woman.) I chequed into financial aide. This was what I was asked, ” Are you pregnant, do you have children, are you Native American or Hispanic?”. No to all the aforementioned. I was told to leave as there was NOTHING available for me. Fast forward 20+ years, I see it has become worse, in every aspect of society. We all could carry on for hours on the plight of “un”civilisation & the decline of humanity!
I have read your ramblings from time to time and am encouraged all is not lost. There are thinking people yet! I’m happy to learn some are also resisting the dumbing down of society! (I have no television, but have heard of mockumentaries, reality shows, & other drivel I’m happy to avoid!) Thank you for being a thinking individual!
Here, here! I never wanted children. They are expensive, the government wants to have their “hand” in everything, and frankly, I wanted to work and travel without the extra headache. I agree, too many children already in need of a GOOD home, I was one of them. No one ever helped me, everything I have is due to me earning it. (Earning it seems to be a foreign concept to todays generation.) What I do NOT like are the people which have children to ride the free meal ticket, receive the dole, & have something to complain about. I have seen too many people, after kid #5,6,7 or MORE, still NOT FIGURE OUT WHAT CAUSES THIS MYSTERIOUS “ILLNESS” (pregnancy)! I support freedom of choice, but there has got to be a line!! I’m convinced awful places like WalMart/McDonald’s etc., encourage this. Simple idea, you want a car, you save to buy one. You want a child, have a positive bank account. Thank You Mr. Samurai for not beating around the bush, say it like it is! (And now that I’m 41, people are finally no longer saying to me that I will change my mind & want children.)
It is selfish to have sex and get pregnant, when your about to be on the street, and when your in an abusive situation or marriage, are sick with some incurable disease, or are suicidal, and have mental illness. that’s just like asking for despair. I agree wholeheartedly we shouldn’t be forcing women to get married or have kids they do not want, have never wanted, and have no interest in taking care. Not all of us, are nurturers, some of us cant stand kids, and don’t want anyone holding us down so they can rape us, and then say later on it’s a blessing. Some of us do like kids, but don’t want to have any, want to focus on other things, not selfish at all.Not so much, when your suicidal because your pregnant because of incest or rape, and no one cares. A lot of people in this world are suicidal through no fault of their own, bad circumstances, chemical imbalance, you name it, and don’t’ need more problems added on. Look at the news stories everyday and you see reports of women committing suicide who are not happy at all, with the way women are treated or not treated. It’s okay to be single.
I’m really glad that no one has restricted my ability to buy nice things because of my performance in high school or college. I didn’t get great grades, but now I’m in the top 10% of American personal incomes and I’m only a few years out of school.
This is seriously one of the most absurd posts I have ever read. While I agree that people who cannot take care of themselves should not be having children. The amount of money you’re saying one should have before having children would leave my entire family non-existent. I’m lucky if my parents make a million dollars (take-home) in their entire lifetime!
The hilarious part is I would not consider myself or my family to be poor. Beyond that most people I have met that grew up under these type of circumstances are so wasteful and unappreciative and can’t do anything for themselves. You don’t need a ton of money to live. You can grow your own food and relatively small gardens and freeze/can to last through winters. You can buy the things you cannot grow in bulk for a very small fraction of the price. You can not by any processed crap foods and make everything yourself. You can hang your clothes to dry and wash dishes by hand. Instead of buying new clothes made in over-sea sweatshops you can buy used & up-cycled clothing from thrift stores. You don’t need expensive toys and games you can be creative and active and imaginative. You can make your own laundry soap and cleaning products instead of buying over prices ones in stores. Ect. Ect.
Basically, you can be an extremely environmentally aware, self-sufficient, creative, happy, appreciative , resourceful human being for very little money. With a happy healthy family.
Or you can have a stressful job, pop your anti-anxiety & anti-depressant meds. Buy a ton of overpriced shit you don’t need. Spend your whole life keeping up with the jones in your materialistic addictions always wanting more and never being satisfied, and raise some brats of children who will become perfect little consumers who can’t do anything for themselves.
Ay yi yi
Thoughts on allowing EVERYONE to receive the child tax credit, or nobody? It feels discriminatory and weird the gov’t is meddling in our personal affairs no?
Everyone should get it, or no one should get it. I prefer the latter. I don’t want to support someone’s breeding decision, and saving the EITC will go a big way to helping reduce the budget deficiit and strengthen the economy.
On the flip side, maybe children aren’t that expensive as you often see families making less than $50,000 with 3+ children.
Sam, do the math. Unless you know the details on how those children are financed, all you can do is fall back on the data you trust, like the government projections (which I personally think are on the low side). Families earning less than 50k, get by due to government assistance (like EITC and more) and live more cheaply like in subsidized housing. How many of their children get to graduate from Ivy League?
I’m not saying every child should attend Ivy League, in fact I think in the US way too many unqualified students go to college and feed the university’s profit maw, but a families budget should allow for it. Attending Ivy League will give your kid a big advantage over her peers when it comes to finding a job at graduation, however.
In fact, 50k a year is probably about right for everything for 4 year average college these days, including room, board, books, extra fees, additional tuition, … So, be sure when you have that kid that in 18 years you’ll have 200k (with an adjustment for inflation, probably more like 300k if you project out from today.)
And, this doesn’t even consider post-grad like law degree (a terrible idea these days), medicine, advanced science degree.
Hi Sam. Comments on this thread still show up in my inbox, 4 years after commenting. Nice thread. Lisa can’t do math, actually, Lisa *won’t* do math, pretty obvious. It’s what you’re up against, though, the fairy-tale princess lifestyle
I agree with Sam (nearly) 100% on this topic. My only reservation is that $1m may be a little unrealistic; with such a standard we’d be totally DE-populated pretty darned soon….which, from an extreme point of view, really isn’t a bad thing….but I digress.
I believe that 75% of the problems in the U.S. could be resolved by deterring folks who have no business raising children from having them. There is no greater responsibility in this world than raising a child, yet we have millions of people completely lacking in financial, mental, and/or emotional resources bringing forth children.
Many folks who may not be millionaires may make great parents. Being *slightly* underprepared financially for parenthood may not be the worst thing, so long as the prospective parents go into it with eyes wide open. I still think it’s not the wisest thing to do, but such folks, who otherwise have the mental/emotional wherewithal and maturity to “scrape by” and make it work, by all means should have kids. It’s not about giving kids every financial advantage, really; it’s about having the intelligence, capacity, and wisdom to approach the issue with the care and gravity it deserves, and fully accepting the RESPONSIBILITY.
What makes me angry is irresponsibility. I have a real hard time with the idea of paying for other people’s poor choices, and having a child that you cannot support at all qualifies as a heinously poor choice. When someone has a child that they cannot properly support, that child becomes “OUR” problem, and usually a problem for life. Our prisons are full of the results of all of these poor choices. And look…. prison populations continue to grow. Worse still, most of those people in prison have multiple children from multiple relationships, further perpetuating/exacerbating the problem. The exponentiality of the thing is pretty darned frightening!
While I don’t share it, I understand the emotional drive of many people to have kids. However, that drive shouldn’t overcome the common sense required to recognize the consequences and responsibilities of bringing a child into the world. Those who fail to comprehend these things should NOT have kids. Again, it’s not about a fixed dollar amount; it’s about understanding and responsibility. Unfortunately, there are also an awful lot of folks who don’t “think” at all. They don’t have kids because they ever *thought* about it or “wanted kids”; they have kids because they were irresponsible to begin with. Thus we have children (of any age) raising children. Talk about scary!
I doubt that the cohort reading Sam’s blog falls into the latter category. I think his intent is simply to point out that, if you’re a person seeking to enhance your finances and live a reasonably prosperous existence, you should think long, hard, and carefully about the COSTS of having and raising a child, and be prepared for those, before you actually do it. Don’t let emotion overcome pragmatism and wisdom.
Howdy mate, thanks for your thoughts. Yes, $1 million is an extreme hurdle. I just wanted to get the minds rolling a little bit.
But with kids, a family can get a lot of subsidy from the government. You can also make up to about $95,000 and get subsidized health care if you have children. Hence, it’s not all that irrational to have lots of kids.
How did you find this article btw? Always curious to know.
That is absolutely ridiculous. My God, the arrogance here.
Why would anyone pay for the Duggars, lt was their choice to have all those children? It’s your money and you can do what you want with it, but they have enough revenue from their show, so they really don’t need it. Instead of having all their own children they could have adopted others along the way if they wanted to share their bounty and given some already here children a good life. Also Jesus said, “Pray in your own closet, so that none others will know of your good works”.
I am shocked and saddened by your attitude, but it is typical of “your type”, so I am not surprised. Money is the bottom line, and “how does this affect me?” is the most important question for you.
How about asking instead “what can I do to help the orphans?”, and get off your butt and do something for them.
Each person who is brought into this world is a gift and is here for their own journey and has their own purpose. There is a balance to life, and we are not all supposed to be picture-perfect, rich, two-parented, intentional people. Some of us are supposed to be accidents, some of us are supposed to be poor. It is not my job OR yours to decide who should be here, who should not, and what kind of life they should live. Why do you think you have a right to be here? Are you somehow better than the Duggars because you have a different purpose?
And to answer your question, YES–I am willing to pay a tiny fraction of my paycheck to pay for the Duggar’s, and any other children who need my help–because that is my job as an empathetic and caring person in a community.
If you’re fine with sharing your paycheck with people who make irresponsible choices, go right ahead. Donate to a church or charity. I should not be forced to have a percentage of my paycheck taken to support others. I have my own struggles and needs and work two jobs to support myself. It’s ridiculous to have empathy for people who refuse to do what they must to take care of their responsibilities. Now that the holiday season is approaching, I hear countless announcements on the radio about helping single moms with 5+ kids. How can you have sympathy for people who make such poor choices? We are living in a modern society. The majority of people do not need 7 kids anymore because we’re not living on big open farms where the children help with the work. Government should not force me to donate to irresponsible people. That’s what churches and charities are for.
You must be a person of Faith: or simply believe that human life is the most precious commodity ….many of us who actually live and rub elbows with the working poor and their large families are tired of their life! Because it is exhausting to see people making poor decisions and to continue the cycle of poverty, we (social workers, teachers etc.) wish for our clients to be successful, but , alas, it is the overall reaching influence of family and culture that impregnates their conditioning, not middle class influences.
I think the $1M requirement is ludicrous. However, we USED TO have a “minimum standard” for having children, of sorts. It was called “marriage”. As in, there was a major societal stigma for those who had kids out of wedlock. It turns out that kids from married 2 parent families do better on a variety of measures than kids who spend time in single parent families. People who marry and stay married tend to do much better than single folks or folks who have divorced. Removing the stimga of divorce and breeding out of wedlock has knocked many folks out of the middle class into poverty or semi poverty.
I TOTALLY AGREE with the concept of limiting the privilege of parenting to those who can meet the “good parent” definition as:
“-Individuals who provide a stable, emotionally nurturing environment for a child without IMPOSING a financial or social burden on fellow citizens”-
The 1 million dollar mark seems a bit high, but (having left the “breeding” to others) I would have no idea
My husband and I decided 13 years ago (when he proposed) that enjoying each other’s company and having the freedom to live in different countries was more important to us than taking care of a child
If we ever get the urge… We’ll adopt!