Harvard University consistently is ranked one of the top universities in the world. But what if you go to Harvard University and still end up a nobody?
When I say nobody, I'm just talking about being an average person working an average job. Not someone still living in mom's garage playing video games all day at age 40. OK, a little harsh, but you get the idea.
A happy life is all about managing expectations. If you matriculate at Harvard, whether for undergrad or graduate school, great things are expected of you. And if you don't do great things, are you a disappointment? Many would say so. More importantly, you might even think so.
Education has been on my mind a lot lately after my son got into preschool. If he likes the school, it goes through the 8th grade. However, Is it worth spending tens of thousands a year in private grade school tuition for the next nine years? I'm not so sure!
In addition, I was a private high school tennis coach for three years observing how the kids went through the pressure of trying to get into a good university. I sometimes wondered whether their grind was all worth it.
Supposedly my high school is one of the best in the city, yet not every graduate goes to a university like Harvard. In fact, most attend regular schools any high schooler could have gotten into.
Why Harvard University?
I pick on Harvard because it's the most well known university in the world and also costs $57,000+ annually in tuition alone if you receive no aid.
You can replace Harvard University with any expensive private university in the Top 20. Schools like Duke, Brown, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, all count.
I'm assuming if you went to Harvard or another Ivy League School, you won't be offended by this article. The golden carpet was rolled out for you compared to a field littered with land mines for the rest of us commoners.
Using the word “nobody” is admittedly harsh, but I say I'm a nobody all the time and think it's great!
I went to public high school, The College of William & Mary, got my MBA from UC Berkeley and worked in finance for 13 years. Who cares. I've operated Financial Samurai since 2009. Ho hum. I have two kids and live in a house. Boring! Being a nobody is just fine with me, partially because I went to public schools.
Being a nobody is par fo the course. Most of us are not curing cancer or coming up with a new vaccine for COVID-19. We just go about doing our business so we can make enough to provide for our family. Truly, how may of us really love what we're doing and are also helping improve world?
The Pressure To Do Something With Your Degree
On the other hand, if you attend a school like Harvard, you must go on to do great things. Otherwise, what’s the point? With an acceptance rate of only ~5%, you aren't allowed to retire early and waste your potential either. You better hurry up and fix at least one of the world’s great problems!
Forget about being a stay-at-home parent and spending valuable time during your child's first five years of life. Go out there and make a career for yourself! You don't need a Harvard degree, let alone a college degree to raise children.
Don't you dare work at the same job as someone who went to State U. either. Now that you can learn everything online for free, the stakes for achieving greatness have never been higher!
And if you write a book, it had better be a national bestseller, or else! What's the point of going to Harvard if you can't be in the top 1% of book authors?
The purpose of this article is to:
1) Challenge our unhealthy desire for prestige and money
2) Reassess the pressure cooker environment we put our kids through
3) Discover what actual Harvard graduates do for a living
4) Encourage our smartest people to do more productive things with their lives
5) Give folks who've been rejected from elite universities and coveted jobs hope that anything is possible
6) Go beyond the act of giving money by spending more time helping people directly
7) Encourage schools to encourage their graduates to broaden their career prospects beyond just banking, consulting, big law, or tech
8) Decrease the obsession with making a top 1% or a top 0.1% income
9) Not stress so much as parents about the future of our children and how to pay for college
10) Open up your consideration for Community College and four-year public universities
Status Matters More Than We'd Like To Think
Let's be frank. In today's world, having a certain level of status matters. After trying to avoid playing the status game since I left finance in 2012, I was rudely awakened starting in 2019 when my son got rejected from six out of seven preschools.
Ever since this rejection experience, I decided to become more relevant again for the sake of my children. During the pandemic, I decided to take the #1 worldwide publisher, Portfolio Penguin, up on their offer and publish a new book.
In the end, Buy This, Not That, became an instant Wall Street Journal bestseller. And I gained back some status as a bestselling author. Status matters, whether we like to think so or not.
Hence, if you went to an elite university, the expectation is that you will go on to do great things. Let's look at the career profiles of those who went to Harvard and other elite schools.
What Do Harvard Graduates Do?
Harvard graduates first apply to school talking about saving the world and starting non-profits. However, almost 60% of Harvard graduates from 2022 ended up working in Consulting, Finance, and Technology. What happened to curing cancer and eradicating malaria?
Based on the data, it sure seems like MONEY is the most important factor for Harvard graduates and other Ivy League graduates. After money is status. The Crimson has a great article called, How Harvard Careerism Killed The Classroom.
How Much Do Harvard Graduates Make?
Despite the majority of Harvard and other Ivy League graduates going into Consulting, Finance, and Technology the median income earned by Ivy League graduates is not that impressive.
Harvard University graduates have a median earnings 10 years after attendance of $84,918. That's not even close to a top one percent income for a 32-34-year-old. In other words, if you don't going to an elite private university, you can still make a lot more money than those who did.
Profiles Of Those Who Went To An Elite School
We only hear about famous people who went to Harvard. You know, people like the 43rd POTUS George W. Bush, the “inventor” of the internet Al Gore, Chairman of the Fed Ben Bernanke, Microsoft founder Bill Gates, Academy Award winner actress Natalie Portman, former First Lady Michelle Obama, the 35th POTUS John F Kennedy, unabomber Ted Kacznski, Claudine Gay, and NBA basketball player Jeremy Lin.
But what about the thousands of graduating alumni Harvard spits out every year? What do they do? Let's find out through a semi-random sampling of LinkedIn profiles online. To get my search started, I chose one person I know who went to Harvard and then clicked forward to see what her fellow classmates ended up doing.
My sample set is admittedly biased as someone with a finance background who therefore knows more finance people than average. But let's see where the rabbit hole goes. I've changed some of the dates and tidbits to protect the identity of these random folks. If you think I'm talking about you, I'm not!
Harvard Alum Profile #1
Harvard College
Stanford Graduate School of Business
Occupation: Investment banking and private equity before b-school, private equity tech investor at TPG after b-school
Thoughts: She mentioned to me during a summer associate internship that she was not going to b-school for the main purpose of making money after I asked whether she's going back to private equity after graduation. With an air of nobility she said, “Sam, life is not just about making money you know?”
She then decided to go back into private equity and is now a VP making even more money. This career profile is the quintessential and stereotypical pedigree of an elite private school graduate.
Harvard Alum Profile #2
Tufts University
Harvard MBA
Occupation: Clorox marketing manager, Twitter marketing manager, self-employed, brand strategy at a Willamette Valley vineyard
Thoughts: Not many people think about working at an old-school consumer products company after getting a Harvard MBA, but Clorox has one of the best management training programs. But if you think about it, how excited can you really be marketing a toilet bowl cleaning wand as your career?
She joined Twitter soon after IPO, but the stock did poorly soon after. The company went through several rounds of layoffs and I suspect she was a casualty given her year of self-employment afterward. But now, she has a pretty cool job marketing wine and living a relaxing life!
Harvard Alum Profile #3
Harvard College
Dartmouth MBA
Occupation: Goldman Sachs, CLSA MD
Thoughts: Another standard career path for those who attend Ivy league universities. He was a great guy who caught an error in my resume when I was interviewing. I got the dates mixed up. I'm just surprised he's still working since he was at GS for years before GS went public in 1999, and has worked for 25+ years now. I wonder whether he went through a divorce or something else is going on.
Harvard Alum Profile #4
Philips Academy Andover (high school)
Harvard College
Occupation: McKinsey Consulting analyst, VP of Operations at failed e-commerce startup, founder of clothing startup that needs funding
Thoughts: McKinsey is one of the hardest places to get a job after college due to their infamous case study interviews and brainteasers e.g. how many jelly beans can fit inside a Boeing 747 and why? After McKinsey, he spent five years working at one of the biggest flameouts in e-commerce history where the company raised over $300M and was valued at over $1B before getting acquired for less than $30M.
Good for him for utilizing what he learned to start his own e-commerce company. But without another round of funding this year, it's highly likely his business will dissolve and he'll end up burning through lots of his own cash. Running in place for 10 years is tough.
Harvard Alum Profile #5
Yale University undergrad
Yale University Masters
Harvard College PhD
Occupation: Analytics for a startup, analyst for a mobile gaming startup, director of growth for a startup, head of growth for another startup, venture capital, self-employed
Thoughts: I'm absolutely blown away by his resume. I was strongly considering getting a PhD after I left the private sector in 2012, but realized I was too dumb and impatient. The weird thing is, after all his education, he went on to join companies that have nothing to do with what he learned.
I can do analytics and growth marketing with the best of them since I run my own site. His path makes me feel that getting a PhD is too costly a career move today. With his resume, I would be seriously disappointed with my career so far.
Yale Alum Profile #6
Yale University
Occupation: Forbes 30 Under 30, Started a social media advertising company that rebranded after six years because they needed a change in direction (code for things aren't working as planned)
Thoughts: I'm always impressed with the Forbes X Under X crowd. Yale has a 6.3% acceptance rate and is right up there with Harvard in terms of prestige. The advertising technology space is very hard because the margins are so thin and Google and Facebook are the oligopoly players. I tried creating my own online advertising network and did OK for about two years before I got undercut.
It doesn't look like her company will ever get acquired, which stinks b/c for six years, I'm sure she and her co-founders weren't paying themselves a market rate salary. They could have worked in tech, banking or consulting and probably made 3X more in the same time frame. But all the same, props to anybody who starts a company and makes it last for over six years!
Harvard Alum Profile #7
Undergraduate at Harvard University: Math major, Phi Beta Kapa
Occupation: Co-founder of the social media ad startup with the Yale main founder, but left to start his own fintech company providing cheaper retirement plans for companies. Y Combinator backed.
Thoughts: After he realized the adtech startup wasn't going to flourish, he applied to the famous startup incubator, Y Combinator, got in and launched his own fintech company that serves to reduce 401k administration fees. He raised a $3.5M seed round in 2016. In 2024, his company is still doing well and could be worth $1 billion or more.
I'm completely biased for people who start a company, get into an incubator, raise money, and try and create something out of nothing. The vast majority fail, even with smart backers, but it's still impressive all the same. I just wonder whether it's necessary to go to Harvard or Yale to start a company?
Here's my conversation with a successful Harvard startup founder.
Harvard Alum Profile #8
Punahou: Hawaii private grade school
Harvard College
Occupation: TV anchor at Bloomberg
Thoughts: Punahou is the school I'd love for my son to attend if we move back to Hawaii. It's K-12, which makes it much more convenient once you get in compared to schools in SF where you've got to reapply for high school after K – 8. The cost is about $23,000 a year, which is 60% cheaper than private schools in SF and NYC.
This Harvard graduate is doing a bang up job as the anchor of Bloomberg West. I like her profile because she always has a cheery disposition, kind of like your Facebook friend's curated pictures. In fact, she ended up blurbing my new personal finance book.
Harvard Alum Profile #9
Harvard College
MBA from Harvard
Occupation: Credit Suisse before b-school, McKinsey after b-school
Thoughts: Most graduates just stick to the finance path or the strategy consulting path. So it's rare to see him try both. It feels like he's still trying to figure out what he really wants to do in life given he's still in his 20s. Understandable, but once again, I'm left wondering how we can encourage the smartest people on Earth to do more to help other people rather than to chase money.
Harvard Alum Profile #10
Greenwich Academy: Private high school
Harvard College: Majored in Art History
Occupation: Reporter at The NYT, founded a subscription based tech news site
Thoughts: Pretty neat to have worked for The NYT and then do something entrepreneurial in her field of expertise. Subscription based news websites are tough because most of the news you can read for free or can be shared for free. But all you need is 10,000 subscribers paying $100 a year to earn $1,000,000 in revenue, and perhaps $500,000 a year in take home pay.
I've just decided to go the 100% free model because there's only upside when you're at the bottom! I really like people who take what they've learned from their day jobs and try to do something on their own. I wish more people did this because there's so much inefficiency with larger corporations.
Harvard Alum Profile #11
I'olani School – Private high school in Honolulu, main competitor to Punahou
Dartmouth College
Stanford University Graduate School of Business
Occupation: venture capital fundraising, private equity fundraising, account executive for a software company (8 months), consultant for a small CRM company (9 months), business development manager at a food delivery startup.
Thoughts: I'm thoroughly disappointed. After 19 years of private school and $600,000 in tuition, the guy ended up at a company that has already raised a Series D round. Even if the company goes public, he's unlikely going to make a large amount of money joining so late in the game.
Food delivery companies have come under siege lately (Bento Now went under, Sprig went under, Munchery laid off a bunch of workers etc). If his company was figuring out how to deliver food more efficiently and profitably to help feed people at the bottom of the pyramid, that would be amazing. But it's not.
Harvard Alum Profile #12
Phillips Exeter Academy
Harvard College
Stanford University Masters, Computer Science
Occupation: Goldman Sachs (1.5 years), international gaming company (3 years), Blizzard Entertainment producer (3 years), founder of own game company (3.5 years) before it shut down, founded another game company (4 years) but its game is still in beta.
Thoughts: I went to middle school with him and thought he was a great guy. His parents were wealthy and he was super smart. He had a great gig at Blizzard, the producer of the mega hit game World of Warcraft. He could have stayed and got paid extremely well. But he decided to go the entrepreneurial route, which is always admirable.
Because his family is wealthy, he can afford to go for seven years without making much money. This is one of the key competitive advantages of the wealthy, being able to take risks without financial ruin. But frankly, it's a disappointment that after almost four years, his game is a bust. Being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart.
Harvard Alum Profile #13
Georgetown Preparatory School
Yale University
Yale Law School
Occupation: United States Court Of Appeals for the District Of Columbia Judge 2006 – present. Now incredibly famous for sniffling, ranting, and talking about beer during his job interview in front of a bunch of Senators. OK, this Supreme Court Justice is not in my LinkedIn network. I just thought it was interested to highlight.
Thoughts: With his mom as a judge and his father as the CEO of a company, this person grew up with an extraordinary amount of privilege. Despite having a relatively low salary for most of his career, he was able to pay off $200,000 in credit card debt, join a country club that had a $90,000 initiation fee, and take out a $1.1M+ mortgage due to the help of his parents.
Harvard Alum Profile #14
San Francisco University High School
University of Pennsylvania (B.A.)
Harvard Business School (MBA)
Occupation: Created a subscription newsletter about life hacks after spending a couple years at a large consumer internet startup (post MBA), a couple years as a VC associate (post MBA), product manager at another internet startup (pre MBA), and two years as a strategy consultant after undergrad.
Thoughts: This Harvard MBA and U. Penn grad has done literally every job that such graduates would love to land e.g. strategy consulting, VC, internet startup.
However, despite working at all the go-to industries and companies and attending all the prestigious schools a go-getter would want, at 35-years-old, she left it all behind to try and build something of her own. I get it because it is much more rewarding to build something of your own than build someone else's dream.
The thing is, you don't need all that education and experience to start a newsletter or your own website. You can start both for free. Yes, you will need something to write about and experience certainly helps. However, regardless of the road you take after high school, you will ultimately learn fascinating things about yourself and life.
Here are more career and income profiles of Ivy League graduates if you're curious. Surprisingly, the median income earned by Ivy League graduates isn't much greater the first ten years after college.
Harvard Alumni Profile #15
My favorite Harvard University alumni profile is one by Charlie Albright because he is a long-time Financial Samurai reader and concert pianist. I saw him play and was blown away. Instead of pursuing banking or consulting to earn maximum money, he chose music, who pays much less.
I always admire people who nurture a talent and pursue their interests over money. Much respect. You can listen to my interview with Charlie below.
Overall Harvard Alumni Snapshot
Now that you've read my not so arbitrary profiles of Harvard and other Ivy League alumni, let me share with you the Harvard graduate data provided by LinkedIn. It's a good idea to type in your school of choice and read their snapshot before attending. Let's take a look.
There's a lot of misinformation in the graphs due to mislabeling, but we learn the following:
* The Boston Area is ranked first in terms of where most Harvard alum end up working. So you've got to wonder why Boston isn't more of an economic powerhouse like New York City, London, or the San Francisco Bay Area. Boston is relatively cheap compared to other major international cities.
* New York City, San Francisco, Washington D.C., and Los Angeles are the main cities of employment for Harvard alum.
* Google, McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, Microsoft, IBM, BCG, Morgan Stanley, Amazon, and Bain are the most common employers. All the others listed in the employers column have to do with education.
* Business Development is the most common role. Business Development basically is a catchall phrase for those who try to build new business partnerships with other companies to grow revenue, profits, and exposure.
For example, the Business Development role at Financial Samurai may entail building new advertising relationships with products in the retirement space. Biz Dev requires financial acumen, social skills, negotiating skills, and product knowledge. It's a good role to be in before you start your own company. I'm surprised Education is higher than Entrepreneurship, since everybody wants to be their own boss.
William & Mary Alumni Profile
In contrast, take a look at the graduate profile on LinkedIn of my alma mater, William & Mary in Virginia. Again, William & Mary is a public college. There's a definite geographic bias towards the East Coast and it looks like consulting companies are the main employers.
I'm proud to see Education and Community and Social Services right up there in the What they do column. Check out your school's profile as well.
An Ivy League Education Is No Longer The Golden Ticket
One of the most peculiar situations I found myself in was rejecting Harvard University and other Ivy League applicants for summer internships or financial analyst jobs at Goldman Sachs between 1999 – 2001. Goldman made all employees, regardless of their seniority, actively participate in the interview process in order to maintain our tight culture.
Here I was, a guy who absolutely would not have gotten into Harvard if I had applied, rejecting guys and gals who would run circles around me in school. Although, to be fair, we learn from the Supreme Court trial that Harvard assigns lower personality scores to Asian applicants to justify their rejections, despite objectively higher grades and test score. That's BS.
Google, McKinsey, Microsoft, Goldman, Amazon and the likes are all amazing companies with plenty of elite university graduates. But at the end of the day, what exactly are you doing with all that education and your top 0.1% brain?
Is your life's purpose to figure out how to best optimize an online ad? Is your calling to provide senior management reasons why they should fire 25% of their work force to optimize profits? Do you really want to make pitch books or woo wealthy entrepreneurs all your life?
Are you seriously pumped to wake up each morning to figure out how to best improve on-demand food delivery times? Come on. There's got to be more to work than making lots of money.
Be Somebody Instead
The most fulfilling work directly helps someone in need. Compared to someone who works mainly for money and prestige, you will feel less burned out if you are making a difference in someone else's life.
For example, helping people in need is what Haben Girm, a legally blind (best corrected visual acuity with glasses or contacts is 20/200 or worse) and deaf Harvard Law graduate is doing.
She has dedicated her life to making the workplace, technology, and life in general more accessible to the roughly 49 million disabled people in America (~15% of the population). Respect!
Perhaps being a somebody is being a doctor, a scientist, a NICU nurse, a professor, a social worker, or a firefighter is as well.
The joy I observe from my fellow teachers is next-level compared to the joy and excitement I witness from my finance, consulting, law, and techie friends. I wasn't lucky enough to realize this truth until I was in my 30s. Better late than never.
Although it's nice to donate money once you've made enough money, the people who are most inspiring are those people deep in the trenches doing good work. They are the ones who often help the most, but curiously get paid the least, e.g. educator.
Still Be Proud If You Went To Harvard
If you didn't get into a school like Harvard, its OK! Once you're in the vortex, it's almost impossible to break free given massive expectations.
And if you did attend Harvard or the like, major props to you! Be proud of your accomplishment and don't let this article diminish your achievement. Instead, utilize your intellectual gift by doing something the rest of us could never imagine.
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This article brings up a lot of emotions for me. I was a first generation, low income student in the early 2000s who graduated from Georgetown University. Since graduating, I worked some of the typical Georgetown-esque jobs in media and tech as well as got a MBA from a Top 10 (not saying to prevent doxing) but ended up starting my own company in the construction trades. It’s a big company with hundreds of employees and profits in the millions.
I’m remain very active with Georgetown and have given hundreds of hours supporting the sports, FGLI and admissions programs, but I always get punted when it comes time to taking leadership roles. I’ve gone through interview process a number of times, have great interviews and get solid recommendations letters but they always end up selecting the private equity, high powered attorney, or the tech exec over me – the construction company owner – to represent the school.
The only thing I can figure is, I don’t work in the right industry or I’m not the right type of “successful enough” to be formally associated with the university. So folks, it may be not just a matter of being successful, but being successful in the right industries. And if you don’t check one of those boxes, in the school’s eyes you are still a “nobody” at the top 25 schools. Very strange bc I’m of the mindset that success is success, but apparently prestige matters more.
Fascinating insights! Thanks! I would happily listen to your talk and representation, and have your position than those others!
The status game is a big one with college graduates from such schools these days.
Just bought your book for my son, as is he going to listen to Mom & Dad who accumulated a very comfortable retirement, brick by brick, over 40 years? But, your article caught my eye, as I dated a guy who jumped out of a building a couple of years after graduating from Harvard because doors didn’t open. My husband (and later me), worked for Big Oil, but bailed after the mind numbing crunch. He turned down McKinsey, too. We both were academic superstars, but Ivies were out of the question. In his case, he had to support his widowed mother, and in mine, my middle class parents had too much $ for me to qualify for aid, and they refused to help “a girl” go to college. So it was State U for us both. My snobby Ivy friends, as a rule, did VERY well, but had a very nice boost from their parents all along the way. But, life is NOT dependent on credentials.. just your attitude.
I am a Cornell graduate and have an MA in Finance from a state school and an MBA from a no name private school. I am 41 and have been working for the Federal Govt as a Financial Analyst for the past one year.
I basically took a 10 year break to live abroad and get married. I definitely see value in going to the highest ranked school you can get into.
The problem with the real world is that others have unique skills that you don’t. For example I know nothing about cars or home construction.
I’m proud that I went to Cornell but it doesn’t help in getting a job unless you already have 2 years of work experience.
Going to any college will teach you some about life, but it is hard to get a job even if you go to Harvard.
In the end you have to master stress and fear in your mind. Colleges are just businesses, and they won’t hire you even if you went to school there.
So yeah if you did the internships, you would probably get a good job from a good school.
If you’re good in school, you’re bad at something else.
So aim to work for a University or Government and you’ll be fine no matter where you go to college.
This is the third time I’ve read this article. Love it. It’s a question I ponder for my kids who’ve just entered high school. We’re not shooting for Ivy, but it’s certainly a possibility. The people who I know attended Ivy’s are just as likely to be stay at home parents, public school teachers or judges as anyone else. Maybe not judges–Ivy probably helps.
And that’s the problem. Anybody can be a nobody. But if you want to be a somebody, it does help to have that Ivy education.
I had an education similar to yours. I was on my way to being somebody, then I became a nobody by retiring yearly. I don’t even have a blog so by comparison you’re a rock star. Maybe I’ll donate enough money to my alma mater one day to have a classroom named after me.
BTW what happened to the feature that notifies me should someone respond?
BTW I worked in consulting for 14 years—Big 6 not McKinsey. I found this article interesting.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-management-consulting-589f15c9
“Is your life’s purpose to figure out how to best optimize an online ad?…”
This is just it: the type of brain that can succeed in these highly competitive academic spaces has not been trained to think altruistically generally speaking. They are trained to win, very often at the expense of their Selves. Innovation and people capable of thinking out side of the box will likely have come from a wilder frontier then the highly structured world of elite academia. People like yourself. Successful enough to be free to think independently and creatively.
I mean, this is absolutely hilarious. “Somebodies” are people who have failed to recognize the futility of comparison, so they jump through ever-hotter burning hoops to impress those of us smart enough to reject the notion. High-octane comparison, that’s the game they are all playing without noticing they are spending their precious awakening on fruitless endeavors. Prestige and wealth feel good, but only when comparison is at play which is why those ideas become chains to ego. The endless list of humans you and I will never know or hear of that have participated in it before we existed? Dead or forgotten. The people they compared/compare themselves to? Meaningless names and numbers attributed to endless human progression. The businesses that turn remarkable profits in exchange for “prestige” which only exists in the minds of people who buy into it? Those are the universities capitalizing on the grandios stupidity. Everyone who wastes their life on this foolishness eventually comes to realize that they ended up tired and no better than anyone else, because the game of life is relative and joy can be had from any perspective other than comparison/envy. Comparison and envy are a living hell that can’t be achieved away, it only gets worse the deeper you dive into the habit. We are all star dust, and we all return to star dust, and the minutiae of your “ivy league” (marketing scheme) education or your “relevance” (personality dis-order) won’t even register as a blip on the screen of the greater perspective of time, human history, or universal existence. But, these types of humans would not know anything about existential yet. The “elite” are all clamoring over an illusion, and all it really is is an addiction to very bizarre fantasies. Bizarre to those of us who are too intelligent to participate, at least. To them, this learned behavior for waste of existence is a lifestyle. Que Sera Sera.
I’m 50 years old and have an Ivy League degree, but it’s now about 25 years ago so by now I find myself unable to get a job at all. That and I’m “black” looking, not any part African or African-American but nevertheless that’s the race I get treated like when people look at me; I find I get the “guess who’s coming to the interview” scenario meaning job search time in my house is also known as “Passover.” By now I can’t tell whether it’s my age or the colour of my skin that does that. People don’t believe that I’m Yale class of 1996 because I’m “black” or because I don’t look that old, one or the other, or maybe both.
Hi Pamela, thanks for sharing. ““guess who’s coming to the interview” scenario meaning job search time in my house is also known as “Passover.”” I don’t quit get what you’re saying though. Can you elaborate?
Also, do you need a job? Or are you good to go? thx
Related:
How To Develop Your Personality To Get Into An Elite University
I just stumbled on your article via Google. I have 2 ivy league degrees and have been working in non-profit for awhile now. Many of my peers are a lot more “successful” than I am and I often struggle with whether I wasted my ivy league education. It was easy to get into nonprofit causes when I was younger and didn’t have any responsibilities. Now with a mortgage and kids, it’s hard not to compare myself with others who seem to not only be a lot more financially stable, but who are have important titles, working at big name companies. Do I get satisfaction thinking that I’m helping the world in some way? I do, but I’m also a lot less idealistic now and I see that many of the people at large NGO’s and in government who are calling the shots are mostly those who accumulated wealth and experience in the private sector before transitioning to public service.
Thank you for your perspective. And I do want to thank you for the good work you are doing!
Yes, as we get older, we get jaded. And you talking about those people at the top usually already got their money.
I don’t think you wasted your time because you got into the best school you could (max potential) and are doing something meaningful. More people need to do what you do.
Personally, I enjoy writing about personal finance to help people improve their financial situation so they can do more of what they want.
If you’re looking to improve your finances, I think you’ll enjoy reading my new book, Buy This, Not That: How To Spend Your Way To Wealth And Freedom.
Thanks again for your good work!
@H
Oh boy I feel you. Have you ever seen one of my favorite Ted Talks on this very topic? I’ve shared with so many people because it is brilliant and pretty obvious but the speaker Dan Pallota really clarifies it in under 20 mins:
The way we think about charity is dead wrong | Dan Pallotta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfAzi6D5FpM
Once you get some real world experience under your belt I doubt if the school you went to really matters that much. In all of the companies I have worked at, once you get your foot in the door showing success in real world projects is what really matters.
I’m a law school graduate and I have to disagree. Almost 20 years out I still see job postings that ask about law review and other things you did in law school. It’s honestly mind-boggling
I have a hard time thinking that any of the alums profiled are nobodies, but admittedly I’m not an American and my perspective may be skewed. They all seem to be doing things that it would be a bit more of a rarity for graduates of run-of-the-mill institutions to be doing, and consequently not quite “average jobs”, which is the criterion adopted by the author. Even those who became entrepreneurs – if you think about it – might have found their feet within their field more easily thanks to connections made at Harvard or at earlier stages of a not quite average career. It would be interesting to know how many of these people are doing better than their parents were at the same age. Also, how many settled in places, shall we say, more bustling or cosmopolitan than their hometowns?
I say this as someone who probably amounts to an actual nobody. I went to Oxford as an undergrad. That was the best life ever got. Now I practice small-town law in a pretty wretched part of the world serving whackjob clients that come in via the internet. My standard of living is easily behind where my parents’ was at the same age. So if you accept the premise that, given the right material, an elite university is meant to put its graduates at least a leg or two above where they began, and certainly to give them access to a broad choice of ways to accomplish this, then you’d have to conclude that something went seriously wrong somewhere in my case. That is not, I think, a conclusion which one could fairly draw of the profiles in the article. There’s a difference between lacking a wikipedia page and being a nobody. I wonder too if the author does not equivocate between “average jobs” writ large and and “average jobs [among Harvard grads]”. The latter would be a somewhat surprising discriminant of nobodies. All of which is to say, if these profiles are representative of the average Harvard or Ivy League grad, then Americans can rest easy knowing that their elite universities do what they say on the tin.
Must you be in that ‘wretched part of the world’? Could you move as an investment in the remainder of your life? There are so many other small towns more wholesome and engaging, as small towns go.
Elite schools should require their students to continue to commit to the community services they were engaged in during their high school years, and/or do another year of community service after graduating college. We’ll see how many of the applicants will change their minds quickly, and go apply to other schools.
I know kids that went to UVA despite being admitted to Duke, Cornell, MIT, Harvard. Also some were wait listed at the ivies. Had they chosen a different major then prob. would have gotten accepted. Not sure all the reasons but for some it was cost as they did not qualify for aide and received in state for UVA or full ride. Did not want huge school loan. Only one turned down full ride UVA for an ivy league school (and he did nothing impressive for years after attending the ivy. ) Not sure where everyone ended up, but know a few have good jobs and work for companies that are tough to get into (tech sector and space sector). Some of their co-workers went to the ivies or other high level elite . They all went to public HS. Would they be anywhere different now had they gone to a more elite school? No (though only out of college 5-7 yrs). Would it make a difference on their resume for their next jobs or career advancement? Prob not because they are all high achievers and probably proved their worth and will continue to achieve. The students were all happy with the decisions to go state college (though some parents were not as happy). Some of their parents friends/coworkers felt these kids made a terrible decision where as other parents felt the student was very mature choosing the school they felt was the better fit vs being caught up in the name or for bragging rights. (everyone has an opinion despite being asked). OF the people I know that are 10+ out of college, two are teachers (MIT and Univ Chicago grads) and another worked a short time before deciding to stay home with kids (william & mary/Harvard). No one went to an elite k-12 private school.
There are obviously many reasons to choose one school over another, but many of the Ivy League schools (including Harvard) allow their students to choose any major they want. When I applied to Dartmouth, I never had to state a department or field I would go into, and when I arrived at school, nobody had me take any classes that were required (other than an expository writing course). Most of the ivy league including my Dartmouth also had generous financial aid for students in need.
On your point that whether or not it has an impact on career after 5-7 years, I disagree. One thing that really helps you is that when you graduate from a “prestigious” school is the alumni network and friends you make. This is for three main reasons:
1. For certain fields, your pedigree is important. Despite what the internet says, having a strong undergrad helps in grad school admissions for medicine, law, etc. Also helps with job placement regardless because it looks good to clients, etc.
2. The network you make is with you for life. I have friends in almost every professional field I can think of who I can rely on for help.
3. The environment you are in determines your influences. At more selective institutions, you’re surrounded by people who are motivated and that attitude rubs off on you, and stays with you.
Hi Erik,
Can you share what you do and how much you make?
George W Bush went to Yale undergrad/Harvard MBA and Michelle Obama is Princeton undergrad/Harvard law
Interesting how the Harvard mystique perpetuates.
Twenty years ago, when I was a professional journalist (newspaper and magazines) in NYC, so many of the editors came from the big three Ivies. Standard convention–and I still see this today–is when writing about individuals to add Harvard, Yale or Princeton. I.e. “Sam Dogen, 42, a corporate lawyer and a Princeton graduate….” This, even though their education was not the focus. Alas, it was NOT applicable for other “elite” schools, say, Amherst, or Cal Tech, etc. — no need to add.
There’s also the wedding announcements of the NYT Sunday Styles section (which I’ve written for), which was parodied when someone published a numeric coding system that gave “points” that counted towards inclusion. According to The Knot, which tracked the couples featured, reported that Harvard was the number one college attended by grooms.
With status comes expectations, and or judgments. Hence, people I know refrain from “dropping the H-bomb” out there.
“Princeton graduate,” I gotta admit, I like the sound of that! Hah. But you can’t dog Amherst and Cal Tech. Such hard schools to get into!
The NYT wedding snippets are quite entertaining.
It’s funny, but here in the SF Bay Area, I will always know when someone went to Stanford when we first meet because they will tell me within their first three sentences!
That’s my point! This plug doesn’t extend to other super elite schools. Amherst and Caltech are excellent schools and same pool of talent as the Ivies and probably turned some down to attend them. I remember the first time when my editor added that into “XXX, a Princeton graduate,” my copy, I was like, why?? Of course he himself was a Princeton alum. After that I noticed it over and over again when I ready articles everywhere else in the media…always Harvard, Yale, Princeton. I hadn’t even realized because I unconsciously internalized all this until I was forced to include these things in my copy. It also goes both ways when media writes about people who have failed/ended up homeless, etc and they trot out their pedigree as some sort of betrayal of early promise/potential destiny for success.
Regarding Stanford…funny. I guess being coy (“back in college in Palo Alto…”) doesn’t have the same ring to it like when people on the East Coast want to name drop their Ivy background without being seen as bragging.
All in all though, most people I know who went to elite schools never talk bring them up, but other people mention it because they find it more impressive since they didn’t attend.
I’m Harvard College class of 2007 and a few years ago I attended my reunion wondering, like you, what sorts of amazing careers my classmates had achieved. Truthfully, I couldn’t help but quietly compare my own achievements against theirs (which just goes to show how deeply the pressure and competition of years ago is ingrained).
While a few stars in the class of ~1500 had reached peak entrepreneurial heights – ie exiting 9 figure companies and reaching 0.1% wealth – most were just steady high level professionals – plenty of corporate lawyers, orthopedic surgeons, and tech managers, in addition of course to the wall street guys. These are people who at that point I would guess had accumulated 3-5m net worths and were chugging along to 15-25m after 25-30 year careers. In other words, they will comfortably settle out at top 1% to 0.5%. A surprising fraction of them were married to other high achievers so the combined family assets project to be significant. For every three of these people there would be one professor or government/non-profit worker, even some folks in the arts. Their stories would be far more interesting. Overall it was actually quite a mix of professions, far less homogenous than the preceding 2 centuries of grads surely were.
Cool. Combining of family Wealth and the high dual income figures are very helpful.
You forgot to mention what you do and how you’re doing?
I am now 2 years retired from a career at a proprietary trading firm. I more or less burnt out at the end but by that point had financially achieved more than I ever imagined for myself (middle class roots). In retrospect the results were probably owed to something like 75% luck / 25% talent + effort, though I am comforted by the fact that the 25% was indeed every bit that I could give. The pandemic threw off whatever nonspecific retirement plans I had, so now hoping for an enjoyable journey ahead.
I’ve been checking in on your blog for several years now, cheers for all the good work.
Good for you for thinking about high school and college now! Our kids are now in college, but although when my kids were in elementary, I started to realize how crazy high school would be, I didn’t know how hard it would be to resist getting caught up in the crazy. I did a lot of research, and have come to the conclusion that the current college admission practice are destroying our children’s mental health. Guess what? Harvard and Stanford agree!
BUT even though their esteemed, elite, professors have warned both Harvard and Stanford of the danger, neither is brave enough to change their applications in response.
Harvard alum here. Wife is as well. Not everyone who gets into Harvard wants to change the world. The majority of people will not and cannot. They may have a positive effect on it though. Why would you fault someone for wanting to earn a lot of money? I recall many people in undergrad saying they would go into a money making endeavor so they could become rich and then impact the world when they were wealthy. They understand that money makes the world go round and if you have a lot of it, you can use it for great things.
Personally, I just wanted to earn a good living with a relaxed lifestyle, which I have been able to achieve. My wife and I both came from poverty stricken backgrounds, so even getting to a 1% income felt like an amazing achievement. I don’t believe you need to go to an Ivy league to achieve this though. Most of my colleagues did not go to an ivy league. Most of my wife’s did, but she is in biotech.
I think the worst part of this article is calling someone who is out there working a nobody. That is pushing the stereotype that you need we all need to be flashy and be millionaires to be somebody. If we all felt better about our role in the world, we would be happier.
Thanks for pointing out the worst part of the article. I was hoping a Harvard alum would!
May I ask you, as a Harvard alum who earns a top 1% income, are you offended by the title despite all your good fortune? Do you not feel like you could have or should do more than others who graduated from lower-ranked schools?
As I wrote in the beginning paragraph, “When I say nobody, I’m just talking about being an average person working an average job. Not someone still living in mom’s garage playing video games all day at age 40.”
And I continue..
“I’m assuming if you went to Harvard or another Ivy League School, you won’t be offended by this article. The golden carpet was rolled out for you compared to a field littered with land mines for the rest of us commoners.”
I believe I am a nobody and say I’m a nobody all the time. See: The Joy Of Being A Nobody
What is it that you do to earn a top 1% income? You mentioned your wife is in biotech. Further, does coming from poverty-stricken backgrounds make you want to lift others who are currently in your safe boat?
My point is to question what’s the point of working so hard to get into an elite university to just earn a good living with a relaxed lifestyle. Kids can go to lots of other schools and take it easy after. My goal is to also encourage all of us, including myself, to keep on fighting to help other people any way we can.
Thanks!
I’ll be curious to know what V does too!
It’s sometimes easy to forget where we came from. Once we got ours, we sometimes forget about others.
It’s just human nature. But that results in societal unrest.
Great you brought up this topic. It’s something I think many of us have thought of before, but are too afraid to say.
Risking offending rich and smart people is worth the risk!
I’m a physician. I help people everyday. Many of my friends went into law or medicine, not just finance. Some are public prosecutors.
Harvard is just one school that people happen to get into. I probably would have gone into the same field, despite the college. I guess I am unsure what is it that you want Harvard grads to do, specifically?
We only have one life to live; if we want to relax after working so hard, why is that a bad thing? After all, you yourself were all about FIRE at one point. Why does going to a prestigious college mean you should automatically be saving the world?
That is a great profession! Be proud! It is one of the professions I included in my conclusion.
I think physicians and doctors and nurses are all underpaid. For the amount of education and training that you guys do, I think you guys should get paid at least 100% more on average.
The biggest supporters of Ivy League education are alumni of Ivy League education. There are doors you’ve saw open to you as a grad of Harvard that others who went to State U. didn’t see and couldn’t attest to.
I recently watched a Netflix documentary on the recent college admissions scandal that put some famous people behind bars for a few months. I think it all boiled down to this:
Most rich people want to brag to their rich friends that their kid goes to Harvard or some other prestigious school. It makes them feel better when comparing themselves to others.
When their kids don’t have the grades to get in, they figure they’ll just write a check and buy admission. After all, money solves most problems in other areas of their lives.
Personally, I think outside of the Ivy league – which have fabulous alumni networks – other prestigious schools aren’t worth the costs. A few years after you graduate, it doesn’t really matter anymore where you went to school – your career will be defined by how much you learn, your ability to get along well with others, and hard work.
Other prestigious non-Ivy schools have fabulous alumni connections as well. Example: MIT, Stanford, caltech, uchicago, Duke
Excellent post. I’ve been lurking for a while. I graduated 2 years ago from a solidly ranked public engineering college. I landed a job as a project engineer in a medium sized municipal infrastructure consulting firm that has a nice mix of backgrounds at the firm. For a while I was feeling like a dumbass for taking this job because it was only paying 55k and It didn’t feel like it would let me quickly become ‘somebody’. But what I’ve realized is that the work life balance piece is just so ridiculously important. I’m a young single man and I value the shit out of my freedom, so being able to work 45-50 hours a week instead of 60+ gives me lots of time for myself, my family, and my girlfriend. Am I a nobody? Absolutely. But do I directly contribute to cleaning up water and wastewater in my local community? Yup. And it feels good. Money will never make you feel like that, at least I don’t think.
Thanks for the good articles and keep it up.
I think there’s a fine line between
Money comes with experience in Engineering and Water/Waste Water is a great focus allowing job security for sure. You will surely triple your salary and then some in the coming years so for now enjoy your life work balance. I would just focus on learning all that you can and work on your brand in the industry. The more involved you are in professional organization outside of your work hours, the more doors you will see open. Always separate yourself from the company, you want people to want to work with you regardless of your company logo.
Sam,
I recommend 4 years in the military after high school. Gain a military bearing and life skills which can’t be taught anywhere else.
Sam
Character matters!
The whole going to College to have a career thing is getting outdated. There are so many technical routes that save time and earn more than college degrees. There are federal and state jobs that offer pensions, job stability, and early start to your career. So college is overated and outdated in my humble opinion. I know a 19 year old making 200k after taking some techincal IT course he is really good at. Should he quit his job and waste 4 years in college so he can have a degree? I know another 40 year old soon to retire because he took a union job with solid pension at 19. That being said, my kids will go to Public schools and encoraged to pick practical Majors. I am.not saving any money for their colleges. If they are smart and driven enough, they will be fine going to CUNY or SUNY here in NY.
Chasing status or massive wealth is a race very few actually win. Many people from these backgrounds are constantly comparing themselves. We had a term for this among my peer set “compare and despair’” this article definitely feeds the anxiety.
Better to find a job you like that pays well but also has really good hours and gives you time to be with friends and family. If you can do this, you won and time to celebrate being a nobody!
Some of the most petty, vicious and shallow people I know went to ivy leagues because their daddies found a loophole to get them in. Without the label of going to that school, you wouldn’t have been able to pick them out from the average person in terms of intelligence. To contradict myself, there are also people I have met who come from fabulously wealthy backgrounds that went to these schools. They have shown intelligence and kindness that your average person who needs to make a living can’t afford to have. At the end of the day, the schools themselves are profiting off of a false dream that they can produce tomorrow’s leaders. Regardless of educational background, many who made it to the top have done extremely unethical things so if an Ivy League alumni decides to being a normal person making a decent living and not partake in the rat race; it is not an insult by any means and I don’t think it’s a sign of bad return on investment for the education they put themselves through.
A college degree is the quintessential logical fallacy as outlined in the book “crimes against logic”. I didn’t realize college was just a way to get more authority and be more marketable. I can attest that anything I did in college, I could have easily done in high school.
School was all the same. Read the textbook, understand the concepts, memorize a few things (and be honest with yourself that you did memorize it), and you’ll at least get a B in the class.
Yet, I get paid more than a high schooler me who could’ve easily finished out the degree just as well. That’s the epitome of using authority to emotionally but not logically convince someone to do something. Whether I get a degree from Harvard or whether I get a degree from a good state school, the last time I checked, 2 + 2 is still 4. Can only teach that in so many different ways between colleges.
I’ve met dumb MD, PhD, MBAs from Harvard. I’ve met really smart people without a single degree. The difference is that the prestige and degrees get your foot in the door to jobs, networking, and other opportunities. It doesn’t mean you are smart or competent. I have also found a strong overlap between trust funds / intergenerational wealth and Ivy League school acceptance. If you think we live in a meritocracy, I have an oceanfront property in Idaho to sell to you. There is a fire inside the self-made that I have not seen in trust funders.
Time is important to this discussion. Here in the Bay Area, anyone could get into Berkeley in the 1970s. It is far more prestigious to get into such a school in 2021 and beyond. Unlike some of my older peers, I am cognizant of and humbled by the challenges and pressures faced by the younger generations. It’s harder to get into schools and get promoted due to the simple fact our population is growing and making everything far more competitive – not to mention the skyrocketing cost of education that is not addressed by either side’s pandering.
There definitely is a high high correlation with wealth and going to Ivy League schools etc no doubt. Hence, at the margin, hiring people from public schools like Berkeley may be a more sure fire way of guaranteeing merit was the predominant factor in getting in. That hunger and tenacity is very desirable!
Same! I’ve met people who I thought only had a high school diploma based on their own merits, only to find out they graduated from Stanford with a masters. I’ve also met people who graduated from Chicago University with an MBA, were extremely book smart, but could not look me in the eye to say hello in hallway (no social skills). I’ve met people who had an MBA and CPA, but also know they will never succeed due to a lack of EQ.
My favorite story is when I was at a table of new hires for orientation and discovered we were all from the local Bay Area. Somehow we started discussing which high school we attended, and everyone had gone to either a private or a highly ranked public high school, except for me. I was from the “East Side”, aka the ghetto. I realized we all ended up at the same place even though my parents didn’t have the money to send me to a private high school or live in a rich area. Having a great education will definitely open up doors but it doesn’t define or limit who you really are and what you’re capable of achieving.
I’m with you all the way on this – except I would phrase the conclusion differently. During my MBA, I saw too many of my classmates drank the cool-aid that they had to be somebody. What is the use of your life if no one ever writes a case that features You, the CEO of Corp Inc, staring pensively out of the window?
The pressure to ‘be somebody’ will make you chase the straightforward goals: career, title, social validation, fame.
Instead, I wish we coached each other to Do Something! – regardless of whether that something will make you impressive in someone else’s eyes.
Thanks for sharing. But didn’t everybody in your graduating close do something? I only know a couple people in my network who decided to get married and quit work after 2-3 years post MBA.
What did you end up doing?
I guess I should specify that with “Do something that you’re proud of. Take actions that move the ball in a better direction than it would otherwise have gone.”
If you’re talented, you can get a job that lots of people want, by keeping your head down and working to please others. You’ll be somebody that people look up to, and even are jealous of. But you are not necessarily using your skills and education to have an impact.
I graduated 2 years ago and joined a growth-stage startup in a field I’m passionate about. But I don’t think I’ve met my own bar yet. :)
Gotcha. I would say the first three years doesn’t really count. People are just thrilled to get a good job that pays good money. They dream about climbing the ladder.
After about three years, you should know whether you’re doing something meaningful or not.
Are you proud enough to say what your startup does right here? That could be the real test!
That’s interesting context.
My startup is in the fintech space, getting consumers access to better financial products with less hassle. I’d rather not be more specific because at that point it could be searchable and I’m shy.
As a Harvard Law grad with three kids with multiple Ivy degrees (Harvard, BS &MD, Yale BA, UCSF Med.MD, UC Berkeley PhD, MIT Ph.D). the hardest thing after graduation is to follow your passion and turn down the temptation for so-called “security” (its not secure at all) working for a “name brand”. Barrack Obama, number 1 Harvard Law review, turned down wall street to become a community organizer in Chicago because he followed his dream. Gates and Zukerberg never finished because they followed their dreams. The Ivy’s don’t make people do great things, they take people who are going to do great things no matter what. Go to the best school reputation wise you can, get your ticket punched, and then do your own thing afterwards. The degree prevents people discounting you, but it doesn’t really make you who you are.
Impressive! How much do you think genetics versus nurture/grade schooling had to do with all the kids going to these schools? Is there another factor too, like alumni, alumni donations etc?
What are your kids doing now with their degrees?
don’t know the root cause of kids success, but stable family with emphasis on higher education didn’t hurt. mom was a U of P / Wharton Mass wiz as well. They are all doing well today, upper middle class, kids of their own, etc. Happy, for the most part, as best i can tell.
Thank you for your responses, Mark. I would agree that a stable family with an emphasis on education makes all the difference.
I dropped out of high school, but finally wound up at Emory, then Stanford and Harvard (paid for mostly through loans and scholarships). While I had a lot of catching up to do, my family’s lifelong emphasis on the value of education for its own sake made all the difference.
Another reason for going to a competitive school: We learn a great deal from our fellow students, not just professors. When most all students around you are smart and well-trained, it ups your game for life. It certainly did mine.
How long was the time. Before you dropped out of high school and then went to university? What was the reason why you dropped out and what did you end up doing during that time? Thanks
I dropped out the day I turned 16 (the minimum age to leave school). I just felt like there was a big world out there to experience, but not in my town. Spent two years hitchhiking around the country, panhandling and doing odd jobs. I finally decided to finish high school, and completed two years of school in a year by going day and night.
Then spent a year working on an assembly line making doors. That mind-numbing and dead-end job convinced me to go to college–four years after I dropped out. It was in college that I finally learned to love learning.
Graduate school at Stanford (Latin American literature and history) then medical school at Harvard were years later. Finally finished residency at age 40, and have enjoyed years of very satisfying work with underserved communities (including working in prison–a great learning experience).
Many of these schools offer excellent financial aid, and provide a supportive environment for obtaining a high quality education. Are they necessary or sufficient to get a good job? No, of course not. Do they serve an important function in our society for research and broad and deep academic study? I believe they do.
Well said. Thank you.
Barack Obama did community organizing before he went to Harvard Law. After Harvard he went into teaching at U Chicago, legal practice and running to become a state senator. He also interned at BigLaw where he met his wife.
So it’s not like he turned it all down – he had a comfortable middle class life after law school.
Actually, elite schools sell those stories too.
How many times did I hear follow your dreams while doing an MBA ? This is just the generation Y/millenial version of a shallow prestige. Before it was working for banks or management consulting.
They won’t highlight that Mark stole an idea, Gates was a prick but from a family that were wealthy and highly involved in their community, not that Barack was soul searching for his position as a mixed person in Black America before going back to law.
Luckily, most people will define their own success criteria over time and they will end up being decent people. Having a nation of Mark/Gates & Co would be an horrible place to live