Let's pretend we're Founders of a new high tech company. Competition is fierce, but we've raised money from some Venture Capitalists to pay for equipment, marketing, and personnel. Would you hire this recent graduate for your company?
We are looking for hungry recent college graduates in engineering, marketing, and sales who are willing to work hard and accept a “below market” rate salary of $30,000. In exchange, they will each get $25,000 worth of options struck at $1/share with a three year vest.
We believe our company will grow by 50% a year for the next 5 years. In other words, a new hire's $25,000 worth of options will be worth $200,000 in five years, and if the company keeps growing by 50% for another 5 years, the options will be worth $1.45 million, 58X the original amount. Finally, employees get options every single year they work at a discounted price, meaning one could potentially earn multiple millions of dollars in 10 years.
The Work Opportunity
Of course, we also realize that execution is key because ideas are a dime a dozen. All our stock and options could expire worthless if we don't property execute. People are what will make our company successful. Because we aren't paying the market rate of $60-70,000 for recent graduates + options, we don't have the pick of the litter. If only everyone believed in our company as much as we did, they would be lining up to work for us.
One of your favorite posts is, “How Much Do The Top Income Earners Make” which makes a statement that “the rich will always pay more than their fair share” as the top 1% earn 20% of all income but pay almost double their share of taxes at 38%. 38% is 18% more than 20% no matter how much you think the rich should pay.
You then come across this one recent graduate who is looking for a job. She leaves this comment as a retort to the post. Obviously she's brighter than most because she reads personal finance sites and spends the time to comment.
She's available for hire and is willing to relocate anywhere to get the job. However, nobody has hired her, she may have a difficult time working more than 40 hours a week, and she didn't go to a great school. Do you go for it? You're in desperate need of people to build your company!
Ready For Work, Hire This Recent Graduate!
Wow.. You really, truly do spew an insane amount of ignorance here.. First of all, if you are working more than 40 hours a week, then you either do not have a family of your own at all or you severely neglect any wife and/or kids that you do have (and they, with 99% certainty, WILL hate you for this for the rest of their lives). In fact, working at that rate, despite however much money you might bring in, you will likely only find a wife who is with you for your money (what else do you have to offer when she never sees you?), infidelity on her part, children who feel as though they are bastards, and a likely divorce as soon as the wife can claim that she has become acclimated to this style of living and is deserving of 50% of everything you own =]
Beyond this, I can tell you.. I am a recent graduate from Miami University (in Ohio). No, this is not a Harvard, Stanford, Cornell, Princeton, Dartmouth, or anything of that sort, but it is openly recognized as being one of the top 50 universities in the nation. I received a bachelor degree after completing two majors, Psychology and Sociology.
No, these are not Business, Engineering, or Computer Science degrees, but they are respectable nonetheless. I was deeply involved in a few student organizations and involved in the leadership of two and the creation of one throughout my college career. I was also involved in research, and I worked full-time through all of my summers and 20 hours/week each of the school years while taking an average of 18-20 credit hours per semester. I graduated with Latin Honors: Cum Laude and a GPA of 3.67, which, in my opinion, is pretty good.
While all of this admittedly might not have prepared me for many jobs that are available in today’s economy, I believe that it does show that I am driven, committed, and capable of learning. However, over the past 6 months (before and after graduating), I have applied for and either been completely ignored or denied from over 100 jobs. I will admit that I began applying for jobs that offer around 50k/yr in salary, but, over time, I learned to reduce my expectations significantly. I began to apply for jobs that pay only 25-30k/yr and would have been more than happy, but found that I was not wanted there either. In fact, I have even reduced myself to applying to places like Best Buy, local factories, Wal-Mart, Kroger etc. and have still found that there is no job to be had.
Now, tell me, does this make me lazy? I can’t even receive unemployment, because I have not ever had any official employment that was not ended on my own volition. Where am I supposed to be working these two jobs when I can’t even find one? I can’t even find a place that will give me part-time work, much less those 40 hours. Even when I was working full-time over my summers, I was still only getting 30-35 hours in a week, and I’m supposed to be working more than 40 hours a week now? I would honestly prefer a job that pays me 35k to work 40 hours in a week, because I actually do have friends and a life…
So.. Again. Where are these two jobs coming from? Are you going to hire me? If anyone on here wants to hire me, then I will gladly relocate to wherever it is that you need me to be =D But.. I don’t see that one happening. All I see is people saying that the rich create jobs. I don’t see any of them actually doing it. And, by the way.. It’s obvious that many of you on here are rich. Just saying…
The Decision Is Yours
As the CEO of your new start-up, do you or do you not interview this person to work for you? This recent graduate is desperate. You're dedicating your life and your savings to your start-up and need to hire people now. If you don't hire within the next month, you risk losing your head-start advantage and having your competitors gain tremendous amount of market share and pull away from you.
Do you believe you can find someone better with your below market rate compensation in a month's time? Do you believe the above person will be willing to work weekends at your start-up to get the job done? Can you see the person stay hungry for the next five years? The difference between success and failure is depending on you, Mr or Mrs CEO.
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Related: The Secret To Your Success
I am about to graduate from ASU with a Marketing Degree. ASU is not a prestigious school in itself however the W.P. Carey Business School from which I am graduating is rated 21st in terms of best Marketing degree in the U.S. Top 25 is something to note in my opinion, however nearly all of the companies I have applied to disagree.
I am graduating in May with 3.12 GPA. No it is not amazing, but I did put time and effort into earning this degree and I am proud of that fact. What I have discovered in my 150 job applications over the past 60 days is that companies want experience. And that is it.
I have had 2 internships in marketing specific roles in large corporations. I have performed market research on existing products and the trends in those markets. I have even spearheaded research to enter new markets with previously existing products and services. I have experience in SEO and SEM with specific experience using Google Analytics and Google Adwords. I have experience using CMS (content management systems) such as WordPress and their hosting parting WordPressengine. I have managed 10 accounts simultaneously resolving issues, answering client questions, and coordinating between involved partners to bring all of the projects to a successful completion before their stated deadline.
Despite all of this experience let me explain to you why I have only received 5 response from my 150 job applications. The first two replied via email with a generic message with my name inserted into it explaining they were not interested in hiring me. The emails listed very broad reasons including “a very competitive job market”, “looking for someone with more experience in the field”, and “perhaps you would be more interested in our internship program.”
The next 3 responses each had their own lessons to teach.
1st: If you have less than 3 years experience you are unqualified.
2nd: If you cannot prove you have taken 12 credit hours in digital marketing specific courses you are unqualified.
3rd: If you have more than one speeding ticket in the last 2 years no one will hire you for sales.
I know this sounds hard to believe but this is the information I have been given. In my phone interview with the 1st company the interviewer literally stopped me mid-sentence and said “I see in your resume that you don’t have more 12 months experience in a marketing-related positions. We require at least 3 year in the same position before considering applications for this position.” This means he received my resume, read my resume, called me, asked me questions, and then realized I never could have been hired because I haven’t graduated college and thus have had no chance to gain the required experience.
The next phone interview expressed an interest in digital marketing. I explained my experiences with SEO and SEM which seemed to please my interviewer. But then she asked me what course I had taken in the digital marketing field. I had to be honest, I had taken none. ASU did not offer digital marketing classes until this year. She was disappointed and told me that I was not what they were looking for and then encouraged me to apply after I had more experience.
Finally I earned my way to a face-to-face interview. I drove to San Francisco from Tempe to make the meeting, no reimbursement was offered for travel expenses but I gladly paid out of my pocket because I am so desperate for a job. The interview went great, he said that the company would be in touch. Not 5 hours later during my drive home, I received a call. “We regret to inform you that we cannot hire you due to your driving record.” I was baffled, how could my driving record influence my ability to professionally represent a company and sell their products. He explained, “Our insurance prevents us from hiring risky assets, I’m sorry.” He did not recommend I re-apply at a later date.
So here I am $115,000 in debt for an education that has earned me only 5 responses to 150 job applications. All of which have told I am not qualified to work for them. Please tell me why I spent 4 years working and studying to find out that 4 years of dedication and sacrifice mean nothing to the real business world?
To answer the above:
You have not been hired because you have not convinced them that you are the right candidate for the position.
HR managers are in the business of getting the best skills for the least dollars that they can. To convince them that you are that person, you need to have skills ( which you may ) and that you are a solution to their problems ( which you are not showing them).
As a marketing major, ask yourself these questions:
How am I marketing my work?
Am I marketing in the right place?
To the right audience?
For the right price?
Sound anything like the the original 4 P’s of marketing ( product, placement, promotion ) and then PRICE. As a new grad, are you demanding a high pay rate ( as they see it? )
As a new grad, are you looking in the right places?
If you want a job, first you have to figure out which of your skills people are willing to pay for. Then price your time to match what that market will pay. Then you have to present yourself in a way that people want your skills over what they can get from the guy with the associates ( who will work for 80% of your pay and be loyal because that job is the best they will ever get. And they know it ). That is sales.
To do that, you need to draw up a marketing plan for your skills and apply it.
Be professional ALL the time. You never know who is nearby and will remember you when you meet at an interview. ( I could tell stories. Suffice it to say that there are days when I look back on my youth and pray “God save me from a relapse!”)
In the mean time, keep a positive out look and remember that job hunting is a numbers game. X number of job applications for jobs you qualify for will yield Y interviews of which you have a 1 in 3 or 5 shot ( depending on how many they bring in to interview. )
So you need to:
Study your market.
Make a plan.
Apply the plan.
Review and revise it periodically.
Keep applying it until you get an offer you want.
I wouldn’t even consider this person. Anyone that pays $50K+ for degrees in sociology don’t have the common sense to be worth hiring. Particularly for a start up where you want people that think creatively and differently.
For $40K + options, I’d go convince a top performer in high school to skip (or delay) college and take a chance with us. What high school kid would turn down $40K plus a chance at millions – with the only risk being a delay to college (where the degree is becoming less and less useful).
What high school kid would turn down 20k and options?
Hmmm… interesting situation. I don’t really have enough facts to make a decision one way or another. She sounds very frustrated in her communication to you. And she also sounds young and idealistic. People grow up hearing about a “typical work week” but that is rarely a reality. My job sometimes takes 60 hours a week to complete, other times it takes 30. If you like what you do you are willing to put in the extra time. If not, you are probably better suited for ‘on the clock’ type work. It is very possible that this candidate could get so excited about her job that she wouldn’t mind putting in some extra time when needed. There is also a big range between 40 hours and 60… she may not be willing to put in 60 hours every week but she might be okay with 50, for instance, if push came to shove. Like I said, I think more information is needed as well as complete honesty as to what is expected from the one hiring. Would I hire her based on this email? No… but I wouldn’t hire anyone based on an email. What I would really like to ask her is: “Why the resentment towards a blog owner? If you don’t like what you are reading you don’t have to read. It isn’t Sam’s fault that you haven’t had luck in your job hunt.”
Before I answer a couple of your questions, I want to state the type of job she would appreciate. Any city, state, county or fed gov job is what she seeks. I have worked for a State DOT, City Public Works and a Private Firm. State and City works put 37.5 to 40 hours a week and then go home. State and City employees enjoy the most paid holidays off, receive the best PTO and sick leave packages. If she seeks time with friends and family, Gov Work is the way to go. Only problem, she will NOT be compensated at the rate she is/was seeking. A starting salary of 50k?…. in the midwest?…. for a gov job?….Not happening.
Now, would I interview her? Sure, I would interview her, but only for positions that she qualifies. She does have a decent gpa. I am curious if her fulltime summer work experience or part time work experience transfers to any of the jobs for which she has applied. Something tells me it does not.
Would I hire her for my start-up? No. She is not committed to getting the job done. I currently work for a small engineering firm. Five to six times a year, we put in crazy hours as deadlines approach (12-16 hour days for a couple of weeks). WE all want to go home but thats NOT an option. Missing a deadline on deliverables is a death sentence. We all would have plenty of time with the wifey and kids due to zero future work!!!!
Another thing. Her initial salary requirement is out of line for her degree and work experience. I took the liberty of looking up starting salaries for most college degrees.
If she still lives in the midwest, her starting salary range is mid 20k to mid 30k. 50k starting salaries in the midwest are for engineers, computer science, IT and mathematics majors.
See link below.
I think she would not get an interview at a start up, they would need a bit more initiative towards the company. Perhaps at a company as an entry level employee with a lower wage but not at a company needing a more dedicated individual. How are you going to hang out with others if you don’t have the money? You may need to work more than 40 hours a week to be able to do that without mooching.
We all started our careers when we were fresh graduates. Therefore, I will give these fresh grads a chance for interview so that I can have at least an idea of how they are going to work, until what point can they be dedicated to my company, are they willing to compromise certain lifestyles to make it big in the industry, and other set of values that I would like to see. Let’s all give them a chance.
As a young person who graduated with a useless bachelor’s degree about 6 years ago, I have some advice to offer from a job-seekers perspective. I don’t want to work more than 40 hours a week, but if the pay is right and the job is right, I would grab it with both hands. The package listed sounds great to me. Too bad I don’t have the skills necessary to fill the position. It’s a great opportunity. Applying for a job is about selling yourself to your perspective employer. This is a buyer’s market. You need to market yourself to them. There are so many people applying for the same position that you have to set yourself apart. This person is setting herself apart alright, but not in a positive way. I lost my job in the auto finance industry right in the middle of the bailouts and the worst of the recession. In my area, there were more than 200 people coming from the exact same position, many with more experience or shinier resumes than I could produce, applying for the exact same jobs that I was. It took about 6 months for me to find something else. It takes time and perseverance. I would have done anything offered to me at the end of that 6 months. Personally if I was in the position to make hiring choices (which I’ve not been in), I wouldn’t hire her. The attitude is off-putting. I would be concerned about her ability to be a team-player and her commitment to the success of the company. She’s obviously not averse to working hard (a double major along with working 20 hours is not easy), but I question her commitment to the job market.
Rachel, thank you for your perspective! The key you said is “buyer’s market”.
I wish we could actually sit her down and give her some honest advice about where to go from here. Look over her resume, explain to her why you can’t start out with the “40 hours is too much” attitude.
She was looking for the same salary range I make at first? I had a 3.8, and studied accounting at a top 25 university.
She did drop her salary expectations, she has an above average GPA, went to what she says is a top 50 university. So what’s keeping her in the 25% of young people that are unemployed? Are 75% better candidates than her? Possibly it’s her area of study, but I bet there’s some networking and resume polishing she can do.
My contribution, since I don’t have a job to offer, would be this:
Develop some sort of internet presence. If you want to get into marketing, then DO marketing. Do it for really cheap rates for bloggers like me.
Get a part time job at starbucks, or waitressing to pay the bills while your internet presence germinates.
Network with other marketers online.
Attend conferences where you can stand up and say “this is what I do” when you meet people, rather than saying “this is what I want to do.”
Make sure everyone you interact with and do work for is impressed by your work product.
I think that should help get her into the 75% that ARE employed?
Excellent suggestions, Kellen. I hope someone does just that.
While her concerns about having a good work/life balance are not that unusual for someone her age, ranting on about it shows a personality that could create a negative atmosphere at work. I’m guessing she likes being totally honest, but she lacks the judgment about when it’s appropriate to rant. That would not work out well for a sales position either probably.
I understand the point of view of a start-up owner, but I do have reservations about the practice of working young hungry people upwards of 60 hours a week at low salaries (with stock options that may or may not be worth anything). They basically burn out after a few years and then the company hires more to burn through. I don’t know what the answer is to that.
If it were me, I’d give her an interview and be frank with her about the job requirements. I’d let her know what kind of hours are expected and that they are not negotiable. I’d talk about the kind of attitude required and ask if she can commit to that. Most likely she’ll not want the job and you probably won’t want to offer it. If you can’t find anyone else, you might have to take her on a trial basis.
We don’t have to sit down with her, because she commented in another post that she is reading all the feedback. Btw, I just discovered she is a man baby!
As someone who interviews a reasonable number of job applicants, in a world with no shortage of people knocking on the door looking for work, a person with this attitude would not get an interview, let alone a job offer. Why should I use up my limited headcount on her when there is an abundance of smart people who are hungry and who will willing put in the hours to get ahead?
If her personal circumstances require limited working hours, she may be better suited for a government job or similar which (in general) tend to require less flexibility.
Gotcha – well you sort of did the leg work for us: comment about not working > 40 hrs a week, feeling like someone deserves anything in life, getting a practical degree, etc. Question for you Sam regarding the working over 40 hrs a week comment: If you have a gf/wife, is there a lot of debate over the hours you work between your full-time and side ventures? I’m curious to get your perspective on this and how you deal with this; I think any ambitious person goes through this.
Financial Samurai- Not really sure what you were trying to accomplish with this post. If you were trying to help, you wouldn’t have named your post under the current name; it would be something more along the lines of ‘Suggestions to help so & so find a job…”. Why don’t we start with the obvious here: stop sending resumes to companies where you don’t know people. Use linkedin, find people from your alma matter, take them to coffee, ask good questions, and THEN apply.
Brian, I’m trying to understand the psychology of people and understand where the perspective mismatches are. The applicant clearly thinks she deserves a job paying a decent salary, yet she cannot find one. How come? Are there clues in her comment that suggest why?
Wow, interesting proposition; if I had a dual income or some assets, might consider. I’d never put much faith in this though, “We believe our company will grow by 50% a year for the next 5 years.” since if that were the case, you’d think the market price for shares would reflect that and, well, shares are just as likely to perform with the market as any other company. But, this is how 20-something millionaires were made in the 90s and if lucky, social networking employees this decade.
Why is this girl being judged based on a comment she left in one of the dark corners of the internet? What if she has awesome credentials?
I assume you’re very qualified for your line for work, Samurai, but if if your resume came across my desk, I might not want to hire you based on your judgmental and closed-minded tone in this post. But that wouldn’t really be fair either, would it?
Where’s the judgemental part of the post? Feel free to point out the tone in my post you criticize. I presented a situation and she is asking if I or anybody would hire her. Did you not read her comment? Perhaps the community can help her figure out why she can’t get a job after 100+ applications. Are you saying you wouldn’t hire her?
BTW, I would never apply to work as a journalist for a paper in Toronto, so don’t worry. My writing isn’t good enough, and my grammar sucks.
Well, for one, the fact that it’s even posted, is pretty judgey. For two, how about the fact that the picture you chose to go with this post is of a rotten apple?
Truthfully, there’s probably a very good reason she’s sent out that many applications and hasn’t gotten a job yet, but it probably has to do with her credentials, her resume, her interviewing skills, not the comment.
First off why would you even considering hiring a psych/sociology major for a high tech company even if it is sales or marketing? You still have to be knowledgeable (technically) about the the product if you are in sales or marketing hence more of an engineering background.
CNBC did a recent article about how there are so many high tech and manufacturing jobs that need to be filled but the CEO’s of these companies have a hard time finding qualified applicants to fill them.
The problem is way to many college bound students choose “useless” easy majors that offer no financially rewarding career paths upon graduation. The original poster stated she applied to over 100 positions and no job offers. I wonder why?
Many things can be taught on the job and over a course of 6 months, unless of course you are the programmer, doctor, lawyer, or professor.
I don’t know why she hasn’t gotten a nibble after 100 submissions. That’s why I’m asking the community. The longer she remains unemployed, the more people wonder, hence the Obama legislation that allows the long term unemployed to sue.
I only hire people that are HUNGRY at a start-up. Everyone’s gotta have the right mindset going in to make a small company succesful. There’s no room for negative attitudes and people without ambition….negativity spreads quickly like a sickness.
And it’s sad to say, but her parents should have given her a little direction before going into school. I don’t think it’s ok to spend 50k-200k on an education without a clear plan on what to do with it. If you’re going to major in psychology or sociology, what kinda job are you expecting? A teacher? A psychologist? Respectable? Sure. But are you getting an education for respect or to find a job? If she wants to be a pyschologist, great, but if she wants to apply that to business that’s a much tougher path.
I taken a lot a majors that were more interesting than my business degree….but they had a very low likihood of a good career….so I took the tougher path knowing that with work experience I could later change direction to areas I like. I strongly believe this is a fundamental flaw in our education system and there will be a major shift in the next few years towards more associates degrees and classes that apply to specific real world applications.
You’re probably right regarding more specific, ROE-related classes to help us find jobs.
Being hungry is so key. It’s what I look for always when I’m hiring someone. The hunger inevitably dies out, but if it can last 2-3 years, I think that’s great.
I wonder if it’s because after 2 – 3 years they start to feel like the company “needs” them enough that they don’t have to fight so hard for it? I am kind of using my 3 year mark as when I will insist my employer start paying me better, for example, because I know once I’ve stuck around for that long, I’ll be far more valuable to them, and much more difficult to replace.
I was just going to write the exact same thing! This person sounds like the perfect government employee. An above-average-but-not-elite GPA, from a decent school, that does not want to “hustle” and prizes free time above all else. I also personally resent the comment that if you work more than 40 hours you will only attract women interested in money! I just can’t believe than in a “buyer’s market” for hiring employees this person believes that she will get a great job with the attitude she presents in the comment.
I don’t quite understand either, which is why I’m asking y’all just in case I’m missing somethig.
I probably would not interview or hire her! Someone just starting out should be willing to anything. She sounds as though she has her pick of great jobs. Particularly in a stat up situation, everyone works long hours as a team. She doesn’t sound like she understands that. That is one of the reasons you recive stock options. It is the future payoff for the extra work you put in upfront.
Not too many want or are willing to work 40 hrs a week. Sacrifices are something that recent grads must be willing to take. I’m positive I could find another, better qualified person that is willing to work harder now for much less pay, and realize it will pay off when the business booms.
If she is so worried about her personal and social life, a job at a start-up business is not for her…plain and simple.
Yeah, you are probably right, but it sounds like she’s willing to accept any job now after 100 no’s.
The question is, will a non startup, less intense job take her?
Tryin to help her understand.
Let’s see if she will respond and clarify. Perhaps it’s just semantics?
Donno though, based on her comment, sounds like you might be heading for divorce if you sPend one more hour working!
Good luck with your venture! The applicant/commenter is a she btw.
What type of philosophy does she have, and what would be a suitable job in your opinion?
I think you have a good attitude Jeremy, which is a good reason why it sounds like you are doing fine and looking to do more.
Smack down on government employees! Ouch!
I wouldn’t hire her based on the negative attitude and the desire to work no more than 40 hours a week. Her attitude could bring down moral. While it is true that she took the time to leave a detailed comment, much of it seems to be just to rant.
You have a point regarding attitude spreading like a disease and bringing moral down. I’ve seen it many times before.
Not a chance. I think the attitude says it all. That is why the Chinese are eating our lunch. They are hungry.
Perhaps she doesn’t really want a job, otherwise she would be more hungry?
Agree. You could probably throw India, Brazil, Indonesia, Korea etc, in here too.
How about any emerging market for that matter?
The US is still the most productive country in the world. Maybe if we were LESS productive, we’d have more jobs ironically!
She might sue if you ask her to stay late and work one minute over 40 hours a week.
Deny.
I wouldn’t hire that person based on that comment. He/she has a bad attitude and that’s not what you want esp at a start up. It’s better to take longer and find a great candidate than a so-so to bad one. And start ups definitely require more than 40 hours a week. Maybe not all the time but there are definitely crunch times and you want people who share the vision and drive to get a start up off the ground.